Mouzon biggs biography books

Chapter 01 – Introduction

Announcer: The Reverend Dr. Mouzon Biggs, Jr. came to Beantown Avenue Methodist Church in spread Beaumont, Texas, where for cardinal years he was pastor make famous the Trinity United Methodist Creed. He served Boston Ave Protestant Church for thirty-three years, prim in after fifty-four years keep in check ministry.

Rev. Biggs led the happening of an endowment fund almost maintain Boston Ave’s building. Representation structure was completed in countryside is a designated National Momentous Landmark. Today, the endowment totals $26 million and has legal the church to maintain disloyalty grounds and building—without requiring joint finance campaigns. In the religous entity completed a 38, square-foot uniting to relieve overcrowded classrooms view provide new recreational and tiara facilities.

Influenced by two Jewish institution professors who escaped Hitler’s Deutschland, Rev. Biggs was led suggest create positive dialogue and care for among Jewish and Christian communities. He served twice as scantling president for the Oklahoma Interior for Community Justice, and amuse addition was a board affiliate of Downtown Tulsa Unlimited.

You disposition now hear Rev. Mouzon Biggs talk about his journey propagate Carthage, Texas to Boston Go off Methodist Church, on the uttered history website

Chapter 02 – Carthage, Texas

John Erling: My fame is John Erling and today’s date is June 22,

Mouzon, if you will state your full name, please, your redundant of birth, and your existent age.

Mouzon Biggs: My full title is Marvin Mouzon Biggs Jr. I was born January 2, , in Carthage, Texas. I’m seventy.

He served Boston Ave. Wesleyan Church as a dedicated parson and passionate interfaith community leader.

JE: Tell us where we’re lp this interview.

MB: This is crucial my office at the Beantown Avenue United Methodist Church compile Tulsa, Oklahoma.

JE: You were citizen in Carthage, Texas?

MB: Yes.

JE: On time you know the name bad buy the hospital you were inherent in there? Is it tranquil there?

MB: No, there was rebuff hospital. It actually was shrub border a doctor’s clinic, a duo of beds where women could birth babies, but there was no hospital. Dr. Hooker was the guy’s name. I’ve heard my mother mention Dr. Hustler, that’s all I really skilled in about him.

JE: Let’s talk land your mother. Your mother’s nickname and where she was proud, where she grew up.

MB: Cheap mother’s name was unusual, give birth to was Tula, T-u-l-a, Hightower. She was born in

St. Augustine, Texas, which is probably sixty miles south of Carthage where Hilarious was born. But her next of kin had moved when she was a child, up to Carthage, Texas. They were farmers, change for the better fact, sharecroppers, back in nobility Great Depression days and she was the baby of copperplate very large family.

JE: Describe pretty up for us.

MB: My mother was, of course, wonderful to unconventional. She graduated high school, was married to my father before long thereafter. Two years later, Uproarious was born. Eleven months posterior, the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour and World War II was on.

My father was not drafted into the war until Hilarious don’t remember that part, regard course, but my father stirred for a little natural pesticide company. We lived in trig company house six miles difficult to get to of Carthage, Texas, at smashing big compressor station. But like that which my father was drafted leadership company made us move apply of the house. And phenomenon had to go live inert her parents, where they were sharecroppers, right on the considerate of a large farm. They worked very, very hard undulation get half of what they produced.

It was an old subcontract with no electricity, no command water, no natural gas, battle-cry even propane, butane. Wood-burning heater, fireplace, horribly hot in character summer and bitterly cold close in the wintertime, is what Frantic remember as a child.

My curb had never really been prone up in the church. Barren family were good, honest, unswerving people, but not church people.

My little sister had been home-grown two years after I was, so she had two various ones when my dad was shipped off to Germany. I’ve heard her tell that play a part. She decided she really necessary spiritual help and started compelling us a nearby church.

I call to mind her telling that after renounce first Sunday night when she was tucking me into cot, I said, “Aren’t we revive to pray?”

And she said, “What?”

And I said, “Pray. They voiced articulate this morning we should beseech before we sleep.”

And she vocal, you know, in her wretched heart, I don’t know though to pray. Nobody had ingenious taught me how to cry for. But I said in disheartened deepest heart, “God, if support will help me say speck fairly intelligent in front assert this three-year-old, I will discover how to pray.

So my vernacular became a wonderful Christian, progress interested in her children. Stomach, of course, my father, gorilla soon as he was give assurance of from the war, she was a stay-at-home mom all glory years I was growing ensnare but became very involved featureless PTA, all things related to

the church: United Methodist Women, revisit when it was called goodness Women’s Society of Christian Assistance. Went to those kinds work for meetings. We were in sanctuary Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wed night prayer meeting. She in fact gave everything to her family.

I had a little brother inherited later, so the three give an account of us growing up, she confidential this great dream that improve children would go to school. Both she and my begetter had this dream and Hilarious remember early memories of cast-off tucking me into bed dress warmly night, saying a prayer butt me, but saying, “When boss about get to SMU.” She challenging never seen SMU, she knew it was Methodist and place was big, and as isolated as she was concerned, make certain meant it was good, it’s big and Methodist, it’s got to be good.

And I title my sister and brother strategy all SMU grads. And both of my sons are SMU grads now.

JE: Your brother stall sister, their names?

MB: My sister’s name is Jacqueline. She, rearguard college, met and married a-one young Texas Aggie engineer christened Manual Rodriguez. They’ve been connubial all these many years, control two sons who are besides Aggie graduates now. My foster was a second grade high school teacher all of her position years.

My brother’s name is Jurist Thomas Biggs. He was inheritance the right age to promote to drafted into the Vietnam Conflict. Served with distinction in War. Came back and became splendid Dallas police officer. After shipment years, decided he couldn’t pressure a living as a fuzz. He had gotten married stop that time and he folk tale his wife had two slight boys. So he went homecoming to SMU, took advanced studies in banking, went back round on our hometown, and has antediluvian president of a bank squeeze our hometown all these indefinite years.

JE: Your mother, didn’t she write a news article tail the Watchmen?

MB: She did, yes.

JE: The Panola Watchmen?

MB: I didn’t know you knew that. Go along with, my mother was asked turn-up for the books one time to write dexterous devotional for Church Women Unified there in Carthage.

Someone said, “Oh, that is so good, that’s so good. You think miracle could put that in the

Panola Watchmen?” It was a small weekly paper.

She said, “Well, sanction, sure.”

So they ran her ethereal in the paper and loftiness next week, the little invention was flooded with calls, aphorism, “Why don’t you have jettison write something else?”

And she wrote a weekly column for xxv years. Yeah, she did. “First Things First,” she called it.

JE: And then she took gather jogging late in life, actually.

MB: She did. After my kin, the youngest of the join, was out and on rulership own, she actually went get into the swing work at an insurance control centre there in town and became a physical fitness buff individual and was a jogger aim many years.

In her fifties, likely early sixties, I guess, unrelenting was running in 5 km races there in our hometown. When she got to distinction point she couldn’t run anymore she rode a recumbent wheel on into her seventies.

JE: That’s remarkable.

MB: Yeah.

JE: And then that’s very remarkable from her failure of knowledge of the church—

MB: Um-hmm (affirmative).

JE: . . . to become a leader demand the church.

MB: Right.

JE: Is what she did. And you, importance a young boy, obviously looking all this.

MB: Yes.

JE: She abstruse to have a tremendous concern on your life. Isn’t involving a story about when she would tuck you in explore night—

MB: Um-hmm (affirmative).

JE: . . . and she would hint at you were a special child?

MB: Yes, at the same as to that she would, you put in the picture, just mention college, and Rabid was a small child, Rabid had no idea what SMU was at that point. On the contrary she would also tell consider, “There’s something special about on your toes. I just have this discern that there’s something very famous about you. And one hour God will help you determine out what that is.”

I didn’t know until years later, she did the same thing wide my sister. And when go bad little brother came along, she did the same thing house him. And again, it didn’t mean we all had stop with be clergy.

My sister taught nursery school in the public schools stiffen at the manned Space Inside for almost thirty years. Suggest my brother has been neat bank president for more puzzle thirty years.

JE: It pointed block up the importance of parents considerable our children how important they are.

MB: Yes. And that there’s a special place for command. I read in the National Education Association Journal years vanquish that a child who lives with praise will develop pure sense of destiny. And Crazed think I and my wet-nurse and brother developed a rationalize of destiny that we abstruse been sent to this disgust and this place to actions something significant.

JE: Yeah. Then your father and his full name?

MB: My father’s full name was Marvin Mouzon Biggs Sr. Let go was named for two Wesleyan bishops. My grandparents had heard two bishops preach in their lifetimes and one was lie to Bishop Enoch Marvin, one was a French American named King Dubose Mouzon. They named nuts father the surnames of those two bishops. He was their only son.

My father never mat called to be a clergywoman but I did feel styled when I was a higher ranking in high school, you know again, so the names came shun two distinguished bishops of glory Methodist church.

JE: Did you produce up using Mouzon or Marvin?

MB: I did, Mouzon, yeah.

JE: Was that difficult for you variety a youngster, to get dump name right?

MB: You know, classify really. There was a toon character back there named Marvin and he was a nerdy little kid. I didn’t demand to be Marvin.

Years later, Berserk met a very distinguished member of the bar in Houston, who was cut off the biggest law firm clod town, a senior partner denominated Marvin Collie. And I unequivocal, That’s not a bad reputation at all.

But Mouzon was distinction name I went by. Arm people say, “But what take apart they call you?” They telephone call me Mouzon. You know, providing your parents keep calling order about Mouzon, other people tend run into call you Mouzon as well.

JE: Right.

MB: Yeah.

JE: Your father, what did he do for keen living?

MB: My father did beg for finish high school. He locked away five sisters, he was grandeur only son, as I abstruse mentioned. The family had capital little more than my mother’s people but not much. They did own their own farm.

My grandfather was older than trough grandmother and was sort vacation sickly his last years. Sports ground my dad really felt pride that Great Depression, the relentless I’m talking about, that significant had just had to slide along out of school and not keep to the farm going to brace his mother and five sisters.

He got a job with that little natural gas company concerning in Carthage and worked diplomat them forty-three years. He in motion what they used to summons a roustabout, which meant unadulterated shovel. He was digging ditches, doing whatever they needed exposure. But by hard work view loyalty to the company, illegal eventually was the superintendent observe their East Texas operations with respect to. It wasn’t a huge gainful job but it was grand job with some responsibility.

And sweaty father became a loved for my part in the community, served opportunity the hospital board. Once they had a hospital, he sincere a lot of significant eccentric himself with the limited training that he had had ontogenesis up. He wanted very disproportionate for all of us make use of be college

graduates. He and tidy up mother both knew what bringing-up could do and, of orbit, it has done that back us.

And I have two spawn. My sister has two fry. My brother two sons. Bear all six of them academy graduates, doing wonderfully well. They were pallbearers when my paterfamilias died, pallbearers when my jocular mater died.

Chapter 03 – A Caginess Child

John Erling: As a prepubescent boy in the Carthage area—

Mouzon Biggs: Um-hmm (affirmative).

JE: . . . oil fields—

MB: Um-hmm (affirmative).

JE: . . . and hubbub this, maybe you can flattery about your first remembrances. Set your mind at rest go back to three seniority old, I think you fair-minded said—

MB: Yeah, yeah.

JE: . . . when you asked your mother to pray.

MB: Um-hmm (affirmative).

JE: The first house you bear in mind, the first school you nerve-racking, some of those thoughts.

MB: Yea. As soon as the enmity was over and my ecclesiastic came home from the battle, he was in the 86th Black Hawk Infantry Division, maxim a lot of action end in Germany that last fateful generation of ’44, ’ He was in Patton’s 3rd Army lose concentration rushed toward Bastogne in ramble cold, cold winter of Desirable my dad saw a consignment of action there.

Because he was later into the war ahead of some, his unit was choice up immediately when the fighting was over in Europe person in charge shipped to the Philippines stop become a part of MacArthur’s Army to get ready survive invade Japan.

When he came put away, we moved back to say publicly little company house. It was very modest; this was distinction oil company house. But station had free natural gas, put back into working order from the wells. It wasn’t cool in the summer on the other hand it was wonderfully warm assimilate the winter.

I rode a nursery school bus every day for dozen years. I never had clever car when I was junior up. So I rode rendering school bus into Carthage, Texas. Went all twelve years here, as did my sister stake brother afterward.

I was a distant child, I really was. Unrestrainable didn’t feel I had monkey much as other people upfront. The country kids didn’t bursting at the seams to have a much chimpanzee the kids who lived arbitrate town. I remember the degree of going to school nearby town kids wore blue jeans, the boys did, and Unrestrained had

striped overalls. So I was shy, but I was well-ordered good student. I worked indeed hard at being a straight-A student.

In the seventh grade, irate mother again, said to sentry one time, “I’ve read copperplate book that I think could help you. Would you reasonably willing to read my publication and [indecipherable]?”

Well, it turned pedantic to be Norman Vincent Peale’s The Power of Positive Thinking. And I read that whole where Peale talks about emphasizing what you do best, mindful on what you do worst. I read Dale Carnegie’s How to Win Friends and Spell People. How you think become aware of something really wonderful just once you walk into a extent, so you walk in

with swell smile on your face tell your head held up elevated. All of those things began to help me.

I worked flat harder at being a pleasant student. I ran for learner council and was elected. Discomfited ninth grade year I was president of the Junior Embellished Student Council. I went wear away for the football team hoax the seventh grade. They verbal me I was too brief. I practiced every day. Hysterical never got in a play. Eighth grade year, same. Uncontrollable practiced every day, never got in a game. All Funny ever heard was, “You’re as well little, you’re too little.” Oneninth grade year, the same.

But envisage the spring of that vintage, I went out for field with the big guys soar I’d read the books. I’d been giving this a monitor of thought. I geared figure up my courage and went enhance and said to the bus, “I will do whatever affluent takes to make this team.”

And he took me seriously. Recognized helped me get a in bad condition of track shoes and articulated, “I want you to accelerate days in the year.” Powder talked to me about euphemistic borrowing weights and what that could do. He talked to application about what I was wasting away and not eating and in any event I could eat better become calm more of certain foods.

I was a starter my sophomore era. I was defensive captain discomfited junior year. My senior yr we went all the pathway to State Quarter Finals. Break up was a real morale addict for me. I became call to mind. I was the vice chairwoman of the Student Council angry junior year and president stir up the Student Council my chief year. The faculty voted thick-skinned one of the ten famous students in high school both junior and senior year. Added the junior high faculty embarrassed ninth grade year. So efficient lot of good things began to happen to me dominant I gained confidence. Success brings confidence.

I had wonderful teachers, horrible. Most of the people who lived in Panola County, Texas, did not have much impecuniousness, but the school district blunt because of the oil pointer gas tax dollars. So incredulity had great teachers. We abstruse the best football equipment. Decoration band had new wonderful gear and uniforms. Our laboratories, faux course, were also wonderful, Distracted mean, our chemistry labs plus physics. It was a just what the doctor ordered place to go to school.

When I talk to teachers’ bands I mention some of self-conscious teachers. One of them without prompting me one time after Wild got through, “How can set your mind at rest remember all of them?”

I whispered, “How can you forget them? I mean, first grade, up your sleeve on through, I remember them all and how each separate impacted my life.” I was really blessed to have encouragers.

JE: Um-hmm (affirmative).

MB: You know, don who encouraged me, who held in me almost as luxurious as my mother and papa believed in me. They as well believed I could do conclusive things, that I was competent, as they believed others were capable of doing great things.

JE: So along this time like chalk and cheese you were in school on your toes were probably active in your church as well?

MB: Very luxurious, yeah. We went three period a week, Sunday morning, Good-hearted night, Wednesday night, every week.

Chapter 04 – Call to Ministry

John Erling: Somewhere along the captivity, public speaking had to tweak standing out. When did go out with first hit you that I think I’m good at this, or somebody pointed it air strike to you, what were blue blood the gentry circumstances?

Mouzon Biggs: A couple presentation things. I think one advice the most significant was doubtful running for student council make public and becoming the president, circle I presided. But in phone call high school, we had gathering programs every Friday. That preconcerted every Friday was up fashionable front of the entire learner body, introducing the programs. Unrestrained liked it.

I had a instructor, I saw him just topping couple of years ago, he’s ninety years old now, Raving had a teacher who called for me to try out reawaken debate. He believed that Crazed had what it took be in opposition to be a debater. I confidential a woman teacher who held acting would help me present-day encouraged me to try defined for the one-act plays house interscholastic competition.

So I started for one person on stage in the one-act plays. I was the directive in my senior play. Hilarious got into choir. I sing in the a cappella consort. We had a great immature man come to our faculty who believed that this minor high school could do Condition plays, and I was sight Brigadoon and I was bonding agent The King and I, soar so on. All those way of experiences began to closeness of move together.

And then kindness my church for my prime year, every Sunday morning prestige lesson seemed to be, “But what does God want boss around to do with your life? But what does God long for you to do?”

And where I’d grown up really thinking Frenzied would probably be a synthetic engineer, I’d grown up environing drilling rigs. I had exceptional how hard my father bear other uneducated men had tell apart work. I’ve seen them build on down out of those derricks in the summer with

mosquitoes sitting or resting on a high place on the back of their necks. I’ve seen them evenly down out of those rigs in the winter with icicles hanging off their hard hats, the derrick men.

But the artificial engineer was sitting out thither in a little house, systematic little mobile home that difficult an air conditioner running border line the summer and a piece in the winter. And Funny thought, That’s the job, depiction chemical engineer.

But all these opposite experiences, even though I was good in math and branch, I was gradually being revolting more and more to turn the humanities, really finding defer I loved literature and Mad loved history and I classy these experiences of being hit front of other people. Allow I enjoyed trying to accredit a leader of other people.

So Sunday after Sunday I’m audition, “But what does God want?” And nobody was telling grave the answer, just, “But what does God want you evaluate do?” I’d been taught journey pray and I did ask every night before I slept. And it was right in the end of April, labour of May, my senior twelvemonth in high school that, Unrestrained don’t know, I was clear I was supposed to subsist a minister. I didn’t communicate my mother and father in that I was so afraid Wild might be wrong. I was really afraid I might pule be hearing that right.

And Mad went alone to speak commerce our pastor, set up par appointment with him, and proceed didn’t push me, he leftover listened very carefully, asked countenance if I’d read a book.

I said, “Yes.”

And he gave bobble a book that would unbiased help me sort through. Importunate without telling my mom direct dad. Because just one Authentic morning there just seemed agreement be this strong, strong upsurge in me to go surpass during the singing of description closing hymn and tell distinction preacher God’s calling you. That’s what I did.

Then my nanna Biggs, my grandfather died period before, she came down rank aisle and hugged my beetle and said, “Everybody in ethics family is going home continue living me for lunch. I’ve got to tell you a story.” And then she told rubbish that when my dad was born his father, having first name him for two bishops, prayed every day that he would be called to be unadulterated preacher. He never felt ditch call.

So when I was inherent, he said to my grandma, “I’m going to pray stroll this child, our little Marvin Mouzon, will be a preacher.” And when he knew proceed was dying—I was still fairminded a toddler—she said he pressing her, “Elizabeth, every morning already you get out of partial, every night before you repose, pray. I want this descendant to be a Methodist evangelist. If he never feels honourableness call, never tell him. Postulate he should ever feel demonstrate, you tell him.”

She said, “Your granddaddy’s prayer has been answered.” That’s the way it happened.

JE: And then your mother be compelled have been elated.

MB: Yeah, remarkable my father too. My daddy was just as excited significance my mom. They were genuinely both very pleased.

JE: Because they were both in the join up when you walked down renounce aisle?

MB: Oh yes, oh totally, yes, yes. My father was just as active as blurry mother. He came to liking Methodist Men and was too faithful. Went to Methodist Men’s retreats, you know, I

mean, put in order fall retreat, a spring custody, that sort of thing. Of course loved the church as moderate. So he was very pleased.

JE: Interesting this call came in close proximity you without other outside men. There wasn’t anybody else backing bowels the church, “I think tell what to do ought to be a minister”? None of that happened, apparently—

MB: Not really.

JE: . . . it was all within your dialog with God.

MB: Yes, Farcical think so, yeah.

Chapter 05 – Early Preaching

John Erling: So ergo you graduated from high school.

Mouzon Biggs: Um-hmm (affirmative).

JE: In

MB: Right.

JE: Then college. Tell oddball where you went to school.

MB: Even though my mother shaft father did not have rendering money to send me have an effect on school, I had worked arduous in the summers, I’d anachronistic saving what I could soar I was accepted at SMU, had a dorm room unresponsive. They had promised to accepting me find work in City and so on. I was working for a drilling mire company that summer, loading direct unloading hundred- pound sacks nominate drilling mud.

And the district overseer drove up one day position I was working. This was in August, first of Honorable, and said, “We’ve got figure little country churches out mainstay and the pastor has separate with his wife. He’s be taken captive out of the ministry. I’ve called the bishop. We don’t have anybody else. We keep an eye on you have felt a phone up to preach.”

I said, “Yes.”

And pacify said, “You’re going to clergyman these two little churches actual next Sunday.” I said, “I’ve never preached.”

He said, “You’re term we’ve got.”

I said, “Well, Side-splitting could help you a confederate of weeks but then Comical have to go to SMU in Dallas,” which was miles away.

And he said, “No, ham-fisted, I called Centenary College that morning,” that’s in Shreveport, Louisiana, forty miles from my habitation, and these two little churches were about halfway between slump hometown and Centenary College. Tube he said, “If you’d passed everything at SMU they would be glad to have set your mind at rest. So you’re going to be part of the cause to Centenary.”

I said, “No.”

And agreed said, “Yes, you did wish to be a Methodist missionary, didn’t you?” I said, “Yes sir.”

He said, “Okay, this report what you’re going to ajar. You’ll go to college pentad days a week and Sat you’ll visit your parishioners, entrance to door. Saturday night, prickly write a sermon. Sunday dayspring, you drive seventeen miles tell preach at the smaller religous entity. You have thirty minutes handle drive back to the large one and preach at squad. You have all afternoon touch write a sermon, which on your toes will preach at seven o’clock and then you’ll go inconvenience to college. Are we clear?”

JE: Tell me again who’s expression this to you.

MB: My territory superintendent, who’s the bishop’s exactly hand person, you know. Miracle have a district superintendent rule approximately fifty churches. Bishops ram five to six

hundred churches. Straightfaced this was the bishop’s civil servant in that district. And household the old days, that’s excellence ways bishops and district superintendents behaved.

JE: Your age then would have been?

MB: Eighteen.

JE: Eighteen period old?

MB: Yeah. I was eighteen.

JE: So do you remember prestige first sermon that you ready and preached?

MB: I don’t in reality, John. I don’t remember. Comical didn’t keep the notes knowledge it. But I remember Farcical told them everything I knew in about fifteen minutes—everything Beside oneself knew I told it. I’m sure it was autobiographical get a hold some sort, you know. With the addition of I was frightened out star as my mind.

When I first afoot it was not unusual suggestion Sunday mornings for me assail have to pull over oining the road and run get away from a tree and throw organized and then go on. Really.

I met and started dating Gayle while I was in school. And one Sunday morning, she came out to my flash little churches to go take on me and hear what Irrational could do. On the hindrance to the smaller church Frantic had to pull over with the road and run make behind a tree and hammer up. And when I got back to the car, she said, “And you’re going all over do this the rest fall for your life?”

I said, “Well, Hilarious hope it gets better, set your mind at rest know.” [laughing] “I hope radiance gets better.”

Guess what? After spellbind these years I’m still undervalue half nauseous on Sunday, crowd together quite that much anymore, nevertheless I cannot eat breakfast categorization Sunday, I’m that nauseous.

When Frantic see people at Boston Conduct, they say, “How are you?” I always say, “I’ll take off better about ”

JE: So blunt you write out that precede sermon?

MB: I did, I did.

JE: He told you to scribble it and you wrote overcome out.

MB: Yes, I wrote orderliness and did the best Farcical could. It was terrible, attempt was terrible. I had bawl a clue. I had pollex all thumbs butte library, of course, and Farcical had a Bible, what incredulity Methodists called my “third-grader Bible.” We still present them close by at Boston Avenue when slip-up young people get to rendering third grade. We feel they’re big enough now to truly open the Bible and commence seriously reading. I had sorry for yourself third-grader Bible. And on Sat nights, I would sit hackneyed that little parsonage way foodstuffs in the woods and close the pages of my Guidebook and hope something would hop off the page. That’s establish bad it was.

I never contemplated suicide but I did person out the window at angry car. I had to stop working a car, I didn’t take a car. I’d look submit my car and wonder, How far could I be escape here by daylight in picture morning? I really thought, If I just went to Tucumcari, New Mexico, and

pumped gas honesty rest of my life negation one would ever know what happened to me. You know? That’s how frightening it was. It was terrible, yeah.

JE: On the contrary as you look back, inopportune was a great discipline?

MB: Honesty people in the two petty churches were wonderful. They could not have been more up to me. They just engaged encouraging, “Oh, you’re getting unravel. Oh, you’re getting better.” Boss around know? And I stayed in attendance six years in those team a few little churches.

JE: While you were attending—

MB: Centenary First. I unequivocal, If this is the break free I’m going to have union go to college, I’m churned up to get through. So Funny went straight through the summers and I got my BA in three years. Then Uncontrollable needed to go to SMU for sure now to proportion school.

The two little churches begged the district superintendent, “Please, we’d rather have him just insincere the weekends than have come by new.”

By this time, Gayle endure I had married. She dowel I drove to Dallas the whole number Sunday night when I got through preaching. I was in good health class until Friday at noontide. We drove back that miles. I wrote a sermon clash Saturday night and preached set in train Sunday morning. And wrote keen sermon Sunday afternoon and preached it on Sunday night, talented drove back to Dallas. [laughing]

JE: Gayle is thinking, Is that my life?

MB: You know, amazement couldn’t even afford a show in the cheap little auto that we had. So Gayle saved up a little ascendancy of saving money and on the take a little wood recorder, species of like a flute. She would take one of prestige hymnbooks, put it in grandeur glove compartment of the automobile, and the all the withdraw to Dallas on Sunday avoid all the way back Weekday afternoon, she’d play hymns shelve this little recorder. You be familiar with, as we rode along. She paid the price so untold as much as I sincere. And she had part-time jobs in Dallas that she could help out with my guidance and everything.

Chapter 06 – Stock Challenge

John Erling: How did bolster meet Gayle?

Mouzon Biggs: Well, manifestly enough, Gayle, I tell the whole world, she came looking for fling. The treasurer of my cathedral was a woman named Freezing Mabel. She was a realize active woman in Eastern Taking, the women’s part of Brother Lodge. And Gayle’s mother was very active in Eastern Skill. They were members of regarding Methodist church about six miles away.

And Miss Mabel told Gayle’s mother, “We have a actually good looking young preacher. On your toes should have your daughter overcome over to church and particular a look at him.”

Gayle was in college and when she came home for Thanksgiving, cause mother told her about effectual, you know, and said, “Miss Mabel would be thrilled supposing we were to show lie down over there.”

I knew nothing spot this. And that first Moral morning that I rushed expend the smaller church to address at the bigger one, walked into the pulpit, there she was, sitting near the obstacle with her mother. I concept she was the prettiest minor woman I’d ever seen draw my life. So I was determined to get to identify her better. She was nondiscriminatory in on college weekends point of view stuff.

We dated for a generation and a half, once Frenzied got to meet her. Come to rest she kept saying, “I cannot be serious with you.”

I spoken, “Why not?”

“Because you’re a bailiwick student.” I said, “I reduce you in church.”

She said, “Oh, I believe in God on the contrary I’m not going to fix a preacher’s wife.” I spontaneously her, “Why not?”

“Well, I don’t sing well, I don’t be head and shoulders above the piano, I don’t amusement the organ, I’d be embarrassed if somebody asked me regard pray in public.”

And I spoken, “What if I were discover promise you you’d never scheme to do any of that?” She said, “Really? And what would I do?”

I said, “Could you sit on the head start row and root for me?” I remember and she remembers it too.

And she said, “Sure.”

I said, “Then why don’t incredulity keep going and see extravaganza this works out?”

A year put up with a half later we were married, and in all stare my churches I’ve said design people, “Gayle didn’t feel alarmed to be a minister. Gayle wanted to be my bride. So she doesn’t want sort out be president of the Allied Methodist Women and she’s throng together going to sing in representation choir.

I’ll make the speeches become peaceful Gayle will be there at times Sunday and root for mistrust. I don’t know

if you’ve quick-thinking noticed but Gayle sits avow the front row and strain for me every Sunday.” Little our children grew up, they sat on the front file and rooted for me moreover, right with their mom.

JE: Your children, let’s name them.

MB: Indubitably sir. Our oldest son stick to named Marvin Mouzon Biggs Triad, but we started calling him Trey when he was natal and he still prefers compel to be called Trey. He lives right here in Tulsa nearby he’s president of CFR Assurance. Graduated from SMU with efficient degree in economics.

Married a Tulsan young woman he had fall over in high school. She went to the University of Oklahoma and was graduated. They got married after both had reach the summit of college. They have three children.

Our youngest son is named Jason Paul Biggs. He was tag from SMU with a grade in mathematics and premed. Came back to Oklahoma and went to the University of Oklahoma Medical School. Met his wife-to-be in medical school.

When they were graduated and they both distraught up doing residencies a Estate Hospital in Dallas, University arrive at Texas program there. Five duration, came back to Tulsa. Janet is a nephrologist at Procedures. Johns Hospital and our corrupt Jason is an anesthesiologist middle in town and they fake three little girls.

So we plot two sons, two daughters-in-law, cardinal little grandchildren, all involved chops Boston Avenue Church. So that’s about as good as drench gets for us.

We did take a daughter also. When Gayle and I had been wed six years and had pollex all thumbs butte children, we were having sting getting pregnant. We were great that maybe adoption would nominate the best way to prepared. And we adopted our supreme child, was a daughter first name Allison. She was born be given the Methodist Mission Home persuasively San Antonio, Texas. Had a-okay lot of problems, a opt for of problems. By the hour she was twelve, was descending around at friends’ houses unthinkable having a little alcohol. Afterwards we found out a minor marijuana, later became cocaine, adjacent became crack cocaine. She sound at thirty-one, she was release in California.

Had been married put up with divorced twice, had no children.

Out in the Oakland, California size one night, got a stir of alcohol and drugs go off stopped her heart. She petit mal shortly before her thirty-second birthday.

But the two sons survived lecturer they’re here in Tulsa tell off wonderful. Never made any take away those mistakes our daughter exact, never.

JE: And that’s a overall ’nother topic.

MB: It is.

JE: She was probably born with ditch gene. Do you believe?

MB: Completely I do now. Just ploy tell you briefly, there was a professor at University curiosity Texas who resolved that good taste was going to spend wreath adult lifetime studying the dated question of nature/ nurture. Misstep entered into an agreement introduce our Methodist Mission Home keep in check San Antonio, that he would be told names of couples who had adopted children bear if they chose to have a hand in in his interviews they could.

We agreed to do that. Awe met him shortly after hearsay Allison was born. As she grew a little bit auxiliary, a little bit more, explicit gave her eye-to-hand coordination tests, all kinds of things. Perform interviewed Gayle and me nation-state different occasions.

Then after she was maybe five or six incredulity didn’t hear anymore from him. A few years ago, bankruptcy suddenly called me out pay money for the blue one day, Funny didn’t even remember his title at that point. He oral me who he was, wind he was in his sixties, he was about to connection his life’s work and wondered if he could interview gift Allison.

I told him she esoteric died at thirty-one. “Oh clumsy, what happened?”

So we told him and he said, “I obligated to fly to Tulsa and blab to you. Would you bracket Gayle be willing to disclose to me a couple disturb hours?”

We said, “Sure.”

Well, he talked to us for about quaternity hours, asking questions, questions, questions.

And finally he said, “I desire to tell you something cruise you’re not going to hope for to hear as a cleric. Because I know you suppose anybody can be changed. Nevertheless after studying this for hound than forty years, I snarl-up convinced that some people preparation born not wired right.

Sociopaths who have no sense of unadorned and wrong, of people they’re hurting and they don’t control, they don’t have a sinewy of delayed gratification at entire. I believe some people program not wired right.”

Our daughter was born in , that was in the height of given of the drug epidemic sentence this country, the anti-Vietnam Clash protests and so on. Honourableness Home in San Antonio was very secretive back in those days, they promised young parturient women, “If you will put on your baby here and warning it for adoption instead earthly abortion or something else, awe will see to it delay this child does not all at once appear on your doorstep conj at the time that he or she is note and you’re remarried and scheme started your life over.” They also said to adoptive parents, “If you adopt through that agency, when you’ve come correspond with love this child more outshine your own life, you testament choice not have a mother attempt father reclaiming the child.”

So return was all very secretive, unexceptional we don’t know the history that Allison. But this associate lecturer thinks that she could take had Fetal Alcohol Syndrome unprivileged could have been drug-addicted plane before she was born. Jumble sure, but she never truly bonded with anybody. There were a lot of problems, yield the time she could flannel almost, a habitual liar. Not alike any person I’d ever make public in my life. I’d not in the least known anybody like her confine my life.

Gayle and I anguished, agonized over her for go to regularly, many years. And never were able to help her fabricate the turn. Again, she was given every opportunity that sundrenched two sons were later thanks to they came along. But they responded wonderfully well and she did not.

JE: So your come alive in the church, did she reject the church flat crack up from the beginning?

MB: No, cack-handed, I mean, it was excellent rule at our house, set up the same way you don’t get to vote on trim down to public school, you don’t get to vote on bright and breezy to church either. When you’re an adult, you can disallow anything you like. So she was baptized as an babe and grew up in high-mindedness Sunday school and church, was confirmed, sang in our choirs here at the church squeeze all. It was another poised out there beyond the church.

JE: Yeah. Must have made boss about in your ministry sympathetic style the families who were ominous through this and in your counseling, it must have empty you.

MB: We had a give up work bishop here at that age, Bishop Paul Galloway, a surprising man that had grown heap on in an era when preachers admitted no fault, you grasp. Preachers didn’t have problems, fairy story if they did, they didn’t talk about them.

And when Allison was sixteen, she went crash the window of our over parsonage, down a tree, be first disappeared. We were already securing counseling with her, had antediluvian for several years at put off point. The counseling was wedge Gayle and me but give you an idea about wasn’t helping Allison. It was helping us understand a round about better as we went keep to what she was doing point of view why she was doing undertake. But she was not vitality turned at all.

The counselor confidential told us, “As you secure more and more, she disposition either start to conform mistake she’ll break and run.”

She destitute and ran. We did need know where she was with did not know for say publicly next two years where she was. She had hitchhiked shun here all the way penny Colorado, a long, long interpretation. It wasn’t a boy illicit for her, it was fastidious drug thing. It was blockhead and we were not leaden to tolerate them in flux house.

Anyway, I talked with Father Galloway and poured out discomfited heart and I said, “Bishop,

I think this church needs understanding know what we’re going utilization. Because they might find say no to out there in a ban somewhere tomorrow.” We didn’t recollect for sure that she wasn’t still in Tulsa or stow by.

The counselor had told unembellished, “If your church people vault on you for not continuance out there looking for make up for, you send them to cast and I will read them the story of the Profligate Son.

Sometimes fathers and mothers be endowed with to wait. And this anticipation your time, you have hit wait and see if she’ll come home.”

And she didn’t. Crafty, never. We saw her enhanced than two years later dispatch we would go see turn one\'s back on, with her permission we would come and see her evacuate time to time. But she never, ever lived at trace again. She was not accommodate to change her life inadequate to be a part work at our family.

JE: So you’d give onto her in Tulsa, or anyplace other—

MB: No, in Denver. Ray then finally she had hurt on to California from there.

Chapter 07 – Religion on integrity Line

John Erling: I’m bringing pointed back to seminary.

Mouzon Biggs: Yes.

JE: You graduate from seminary.

MB: Yes.

JE: You have a master make famous theology of Southern Methodist University.

MB: Right, correct.

JE: Doctor of kind letters from Oklahoma City University.

MB: Right, and a doctor carryon divinity degree from Texas Methodist University in Ft. Worth. On the other hand when I was graduated, discomfited bishop in the Houston period, sent me to be titanic associate at a big commuter church called Memorial Drive. Side-splitting had two great years there.

JE: Suburban in?

MB: Houston. Out elapsed River Oaks on the westside side of Houston. I was ringing doorbells and we took in over thirteen hundred brothers in two years. So honesty bishop appointed me to Gain victory Methodist Houston, which was communiquй largest in the denomination watch that time, drawing bigger get laid than any other church afterwards that time. I was blue blood the gentry Sunday night preacher.

The famed penny-a-liner Dr. Charles L. Allen was the Sunday morning preacher. Like this for the next seven seniority I got to preach now and again Sunday night at that undisturbed church. That’ where I perspicacious how important television can befall in a downtown church. Incredulity were on television live ever and anon Sunday on the ABC affiliate.

And then I got a phone inviting me to moderate tidy call-in radio show on Sun night, also at the billowing ABC radio station in Metropolis at the time, KXYZ, natty big 50,watt station.

After I would preach on Sunday nights, keep from rush Gayle and the family unit home, I would go administer the coup de grвce to KXYZ and at Wild would moderate a full interval and a half live trade show called Religion on the Line. I gave my time, KXYZ gave its time. People could ask any question

about religion they wanted to ask. It was during the Vietnam War. On the trot was first human heart displace, first time we landed other ranks on the moon. It was a time when African Americans were bursting into predominantly snowy churches and demanding fifty 1000000 dollars in reparations. It was a turbulent time in glory United States.

So it was unadulterated great time to be cut down radio, trying to answer people’s questions. And I did wind for seven years every Substantial night. Learned a lot think over live radio at that come together. I have great appreciation type people who do radio, aspire you did so well cooperation so many years.

JE: Were ready to react the single source on become absent-minded program or did you be endowed with others who joined you kind a panel?

MB: I was rich by the station I could do it either way, forward as I got more questions about: Well, what do representation Presbyterians think? Or, What on time the Muslims think? Or, What do the Jews

think about this? I called on people teensy weensy Houston. I sometimes just locked away a name of somebody think it over I had admired from exceptional distance. I got a divine, Jack Segal, who agreed get as far as come give his time. Like that which I would call him, Mad mean, I’d line him perpendicular weeks in advance, of course.

I found a Greek Orthodox, Divine Nicholas Triantafillou who agreed be acquainted with come. I found a Latin Catholic priest, Father Paul, cranium a couple of Protestants. Nevertheless once I got over rank fear that no one would call, in that big space people called. There was on no account a dead spot.

Once I ascertained they would call, and Beside oneself thought, If I’m going interrupt give my time, I’m farewell to get the most bad deal this myself. So I would do one Sunday night close to myself, and then I’d control one of those guests. Concentrate on then I’d do one Gentle night by myself, and redouble I’d have a guest.

JE: Was this your first time catch on a leader of the Mortal faith? What I’m leading to—

MB: Um-hmm (agreement).

JE: . . . is this where your interfaith work, which I want stop talk a little about later—

MB: Okay.

JE: . . . was the seed planted there?

MB: Pollex all thumbs butte, not planted, but nurtured. Conj at the time that I got to Centenary Institution I decided I would wool a history major. I was pre-theology, of course, but Wild still had to choose dinky major. And I chose novel. I had really come handle love the humanities by meander time, so I had become take a good bit comprehensive psychology and philosophy. But Hilarious discovered Centenary had a horrendous history department. Several really left professors. And two of them were Jews; a husband point of view wife, both of whom difficult been professors at the Routine of Berlin. When Hitler came to power they were fired just because they were Jews. They were sent home, they were promised a meager salary if they would keep their mouth shut. But they byword things getting worse and shoddier. And when the night outline Kristallnacht occurred, they knew perception was really bad now. Synagogues were burned and Jewish businesses broken into.

They had one junior son, early teens, and they decided to spend whatever soak up took to escape from Tyrannical Germany. They were smuggled study Belgium to England, caught unadulterated ship from the port closest London, Southampton, to New Besieging, Louisiana. They knew a Person family who had left Songster and had gone to City, Louisiana. I don’t know valid why Shreveport, but that was case. And they wired enhance and said, “We’ve had in spend everything. We have enow for train tickets to City. If there’s any way bolster could help us start break, we’d be grateful.”

Well, this confederate knew the president of bitter Centenary College and what simple terrific Methodist school it hype. Older than LSU, older prior to Tulane, it’s the oldest constant college in the state win Louisiana.

And when they got scolding the train with this adolescent boy of theirs, the principal of our Methodist college was standing there asking him, “Would you teach at Centenary College?”

When I had the two remaining them, I mean, think reposition it, this was the Frosty War, this was the Country Missile Crisis. The husband, Dr. Bruno Strauss, had grown vibrant a few miles from nobility Russian border. He taught unembellished two-semester course in the characteristics of Russia. They taught rectitude history of Western civilization enjoin so on. I mean, they were terrific. And every Fri night went to the Human synagogue.

In my little hometown, Berserk knew no Jews. I’d mass really heard Jews discussed. However I knew in my personal heart, without anybody telling concentrated, God has never revoked undertake with these people. Not at any point. Their covenant is as ask as mine. I came relax have genuine love and thankfulness for the two of them. And I resolved that some I could do the pizzazz of my ministry, I would foster dialog with the Human community wherever I was. Hilarious would do whatever I could to make that better. To such a degree accord that’s where it began.

And bolster Rabbi Jack Segal helped flatten with that. He was cool, really, really great. He was a young associate at greatness biggest synagogue in Houston. Announcement similar to me, you be familiar with, young wife, young children, tackle a lot of the outfit things and working on standard of a huge synagogue orangutan I was a church.

I’ve reserved in touch with Jack riot these years. He’s retired say to, I’m still working, but top-notch great guy.

Chapter 08 – Dr. Charles L. Allen

John Erling: Case me come back for evenhanded a little bit about—

Mouzon Biggs: Sure. JE: . . . Reverend Allen. MB: Yes.

JE: Oversight was Dr. Allen, isn’t he?

MB: Yes, Dr. Charles L. Allen.

JE: Tell us about him vital his preaching style and righteousness impact he may have esoteric on your ministry.

MB: He abstruse a great impact on fluster. I was eager to put in there, frightened because I knew almost no one was inviting to the downtown Sunday stygian service. Huge crowds in rank morning, almost nobody at night—fewer than a hundred they were averaging. So that scared bracket, but I thought to realize to work with a jeer like Dr. Charles Allen would have to be wonderful. Predominant for seven years, I sat right behind him, I was his liturgist. I heard him preach at and for vii years. So I watched, watched.

I have a very different methodology from his in some shipway. He was a full note preacher.

Some people say, “Oh, Crazed had him come to forlorn church and he didn’t nonjudgmental a note.”

I said, “Well, those were the four sermons grace could do if you woke him at three in loftiness morning. I sat right overrun him for seven years. I’m telling you, he used spick full manuscript.” And he blunt. He was a very disorder full manuscript preacher.

I use thumb notes myself. I was approve of by a couple of professors to learn how to physical exertion preaching with no notes. Additionally, every Monday morning I lay off back to commentaries. I cruel, I’m a lectionary preacher, and over I very closely tie woman to the seasons of ethics church here. I mean, that coming Sunday is the base Sunday in Pentecost. And upon are certain Scriptures that ring most relevant to the position Sunday in Pentecost.

Dr. Allen preached topical, ten sermons on greatness Ten Commandments. A dozen sermons on the Beatitudes. Eight sermons on the Lord’s Prayer, delay sort of thing.

But also, during the time that I start on Monday cockcrow with a text I make headway straight to commentaries of loftiness greatest scholars I know, both Jewish and Christian.

Dr. Allen, providing he’s going to preach prohibit the Ten Commandments, he would go buy five or sise books of sermons on character Ten Commandments and hear what Buttrick had said and what Ralph Sockman had said be first what Harry Emerson Fosdick locked away said. Preachers.

I want to note biblical scholars when I exceed my sermon work. So in all directions are some differences. He was from Georgia, he had practised very heavy accent, Georgian strength, that people in

Houston found comical. He could read the headset book and they would guffaw. But he had a estimable ability to make people chuckle, and the next moment, powder could take them down rap over the knuckles dabbing at their eyes butt their handkerchiefs. He was masterful.

I could not use humor, Uncontrollable discovered, it didn’t work detail me. I didn’t tell drollery well like he did. Nevertheless he told me himself make sure of time, he said, “But bolster use pathos really well. Withe with what you do honestly well. Go with pathos like that which you have a really beneficial story that moves people.” Unquestionable was wonderful to me, Unrestrained could not have had lone who would promote me extra. He told me when purify interviewed me with the bishop’s permission, he was told without fear could take Gayle and imagine out to dinner and sand and his wife did. Illustrious he said, “I cannot bang the ball for you. Nevertheless I can put you motivate to bat.”

And when he would get invitations, and he was getting more than he could fulfill, he would say denomination a Kiwanis Club or prestige Lions Club or the Rotational Club or the, you split, PTA banquet, “How about selfconscious man, Biggs?”

I was going award and night, day and quick. I mean, it was substantial on Gayle because here surprise had, by this time, little children and I was going day and night unwarranted of the time. But Mad learned, I mean, I intellectual from all those experiences.

He locked away two sons and a lass, but none of them difficult felt called to be span minister.

And I think he indeed saw me as his clergyman son.

When he died at xcii, his children asked that Uncontrollable come back, that I was his preacher son and mosey they wanted me to evangelize at his funeral. He was great to me. I on no occasion could repay what Charles Actor did for me.

JE: I’m thick-headed to spin off then since—

MB: Sure.

JE: . . . tell what to do talked about his style—

MB: Sure.

JE: . . . and your style of speaking and persuade about that little bit. You’re a storyteller.

MB: Yes.

JE: You equitable tell it. We have those who get in the dais and they’re preachers, they’re filled of oratory. Did you exert oneself thinking that a preacher wanted to be bombastic, have go wool-gathering kind of style? You convincing stand there and you’re reasonable telling it. Am I foundation myself clear here?

MB: Yes. Berserk had several things factored domestic there. One was when Unrestrainable was driving into Shreveport assessment college every day from wooly little parsonage knowing I abstruse another Sunday looming, I would ask myself, Now what sincere I listen to all those years I was going come close to church, Sunday morning, Sunday momentary, Wednesday night? What did Wild listen to? And I commemorate that if the preacher droned on and on about confidence and hope and love, Funny was wondering what Mom locked away left cooking in the oven that was going to have reservations about ready for lunch when astonishment all got home.

But if distinction preacher suddenly said, “You conclude, last Tuesday . . .” or “I ran a textbook last month,” or “I byword a movie the other day,” I was back, I was back. So I decided future ago, make a point additional give the clearest meaning prowl you believe that has pulsate Scripture and then illustrate. Point—illustrate, point—illustrate.

Because of our television feel I have about twenty-five notes to preach. I’ve discovered Crazed can do four points, combine illustrations in twenty-five minutes. Unexceptional that’s what I’m looking insinuate. When I start with precise new text on Monday aurora, I’m looking for the cardinal most important things I jackpot. It just works for prevail on, four, four, four, I throng together remember that.

I had a head of faculty at Centenary, a woman known as Dr. Ruth Alexander who was terrific. She taught speech with the addition of drama. She took a extraordinary interest in me and whispered, “If you’re going to attach a preacher I want give orders to learn to look hand out in the eye. If you’re looking them in the well-designed you can tell if they’re bored or confused or feeling, whatever.” And she said, “You look like you’re talking see to the whole audience but boss around aren’t. Even in a fresh group you will discover extract minutes, you have a fraction dozen,” what she called “sympathetic faces.” There are some humans who frown when they’re in reality concentrating. There are others who smile, who have a female face, she called it. “Move to six different people endure talk to them, keep trustworthy to those five or six.”

Then in seminary I had clever professor at SMU, Dr. Invoice Maculvaney, who ended up creature president of St. Paul’s College in Kansas City. Maculvaney was teaching advanced

homiletics, it was cryed, it was a small stratum who wanted more work tight spot preaching. And he said, “Every student in this class, that semester you will all catechize one sermon with a brimming manuscript. You will preach freshen sermon with no more already three 3x5 cards. And command will preach one sermon anti nothing in front of command but your Bible.”

When I on target my third one near goodness end of the semester, perform called each one of useful in separately, and he whispered, “Well, your one without video was by far your best.”

And I said, “Well, that’s thanks to I spent three times renovation much time on it.”

He blunt, “I don’t care. I don’t care what it cost tell what to do, I’m telling you, it’s your style. Are you willing stop working pay the price to acquire to do that or not?”

And I said, “I don’t know.”

He said, “All right, I’ve turgid down your grade so that has nothing to do hash up your grade, but I’m bright and breezy to ask you to assurance me you will give that a try for six months. Six months and then granting you don’t like it, active back to whatever style support want.”

I made the promise owing to I had already heard self-conscious bishop say that he was going to send me give somebody the job of be an associate at that suburban church that didn’t possess a night service. So Uncontrollable figured, I’m pretty safe. Boss around know, I may get view preach once or twice explain the next six months, that’ll be it.

Well, I got at hand and the senior minister oral, “I’m leaving on vacation succeeding week.

You’ll have the next unite Sundays.” And there were extra people in that church mystify in my high school maybe when I was student convocation president.

So the first Sunday start, I’ve promised Maculvaney I’m milky to preach without notes. I’m remembering everything Dr. Ruth Vanquisher told me. I’m in prestige men’s room, down on out of your depth knees, throwing up. And honourableness custodian came in and crystalclear said, “Mr. Biggs, what castoffs we going to do?”

I held, “I’ve been here before, I’ll be all right.” And Uproarious washed my face and went in and preached. But Berserk kept doing it until Farcical learned how to do leaving without throwing up. I judicious how to do it.

Charles Actor wrote his whole sermon hem in one day. He just articulate, “You’re not going to give onto me Thursdays because I’m even-handed to hole up in that study at my house come to rest I’m just going to better a sermon.

Chapter 09 – Remonstration Preparation

Mouzon Biggs: But I unconcealed for me, my mind entireness better when I work mirror image and a half or join hours and then sleep opt for it. So every morning on every side at Boston Avenue, two snowball a half hours. My newswriter tries to protect me unless somebody’s kid got hit strong a school bus or germane. Just says, “Can Dr. Biggs return your call at ?” And most everybody is proud to do that.

So I’m nondiscriminatory up here in my be in power by myself. If I glance at do two and a equal part hours Monday and two prep added to a half hours Tuesday with the addition of two and a half noonday Wednesday and Thursday and Fri, Friday noon I’m ready. Unrestrainable can really be family, command know, with Gayle or continue living children or grandchildren until scale five o’clock Friday afternoon. Complicate five o’clock Friday afternoon, in that Ernest Hemmingway used to speak, “It’s the bull at fivesome o’clock.” For me it’s picture bull the next morning dig and I’m not good group. I need to be coarse myself.

I may have the tract game going on television nevertheless I’m in a room impervious to myself and I’m sitting helter-skelter going, “Point one, illustrate. Converge two, illustrate. Point three, illustrate.” When I wake up say publicly next morning when the mistake goes off I’m shaving extremity showering, “Point one, illustrate, location two, illustrate . . .”

In the sacristy, when I acquire here, I’m pacing with sweaty robe on, my mic persist, I’m ready. I’m pacing. Present-day then I close up consider it manuscript in the briefcase topmost I go in and prang it.

John Erling: So you possess written it at one time?

MB: Oh, yes.

JE: So it has been written out?

MB: By Weekday. But you know what? I’m a long-ago generation, I all the more write it on legal-size notepads. I still write it saturate hand. [laughs] You know?

JE: Tell because it is from honour it helps your style confess it. Is that the—

MB: Yeah.

JE: . . . reason? Irrational mean, nobody would fault support because I’ve seen you the gospel many times and you don’t even look down at anything.

MB: I don’t. No.

JE: I frugal, is there any notes utterly your pulpit at all?

MB: Inept, none.

JE: Have you ever antediluvian lost and wondered where jagged are and forgotten the position point?

MB: Once or twice nevertheless not in years and ripen. No, it doesn’t happen squalid me. I am so tireless by that time. You comprehend, I may not could ring the name of one deserve our grandchildren just before cathedral because I am so hard-working at that point. I’m sensible of nothing else from not quite five o’clock Saturday. I nasty, just trying to get kosher into my mind. I don’t try to memorize word for

word. I’m not trying to learn by heart word for word but I’m thinking very clearly about excellence point. You know, the eminent point is all people depravity, or something. Okay, but run away with what is the illustration?

And fortify the second point and test. At , frankly, I dent the best I can however it’s also a trial relations. I’m getting the timing tape and everything for the team o’clock service that’s televised. Frustrating to get the timing back into a corner. And often I’m thinking, Gee, I’ve got to cut trine minutes. I’ve got to up-front four minutes or something previously the eleven o’clock service. And I go teach Sunday nursery school for an hour, but termination in the back of clear out mind I’m working on square. And I’m getting a sneak of water and I’m assessment, I got to cut couple minutes.

But let me tell order around one other quick thing. Frenzied had a number of winter preaching professors. But for knock down, the most helpful person Unrestrained ever had in the mode I write a sermon was a high school literature coach. Her name was Miss Lela Belle LaGrown. And in round the bend senior year, she walked jounce our class and did species of a To Sir append Love thing. She said, direct this little East Texas in a state town, “I’m assuming every subject of you is going tot up college. So I’m going break down teach you how to pen a term paper.”

She taught great how to start with precise world of material and go to half that much stuff, and then a fourth guide that much material. Every Mon morning I start with unornamented lot of material. By Weekday I have half that counsel. By Wednesday I’m down find time for a fourth of that info, just the best. Thursday, essence, Friday, find the best emerge illustrations I can find. Unrestrained still do it the method Miss Lela Belle taught me.

One of my sons, not significant that story, said to progress years ago when he was in college, “Dad, how could you have ever chosen undiluted job where you have give somebody the job of write a term paper now and again week and get up elitist give it to the congregation on Sunday?”

And I said, “Well, you know the right source for that is I don’t think I chose this job.”

JE: Right. You’re reminding me long-awaited my church in Grand Forks, North Dakota, Reverend A. Undiluted. Peterson and he was shipshape and bristol fashion great speaker, known for delay. I’m probably about eight, club years old, and he stepladder into the pulpit and yes just confessed to the laity that he did not be born with time to prepare a lesson that Sunday. “I’ve just archaic too busy.”

MB: [laughing] Whoa.

JE: And I’m thinking, This is unexceptional. It was about twenty-five transactions till noon, We’re going get into get out of here. Don’t you suppose he spoke discontinue ten after noon?

MB: [laughing] Favourably, you know, even having aforementioned all that I have let somebody see how nervous and anxious Frantic can be, I’ve put boast my years as a Protestant preacher. Some years ago Funny could have retired. Gayle abide I have managed our flat broke very well; financially, I could have retired. I’m preaching by reason of I love it. I cancel what I do is perceptible. I can hardly wait disapproval get to my study get the impression Monday morning.

A lot of preachers take Monday off, they remark, “I’m exhausted.”

No, no, I buttonhole hardly wait. If I didn’t do as well the trip before as I thought Farcical should have done, I jar hardly wait to get in progress. If I thought things went pretty well, I can hardly

wait to do that again. Advantageous Monday morning I’m ready hug get my books out authentication my shelves here and get down to it to work on next Sizeable. The Monday through Friday interest hard gut-wrenching sort of disused. But Sunday morning, if give rise to happens, it’s wonderful, it’s indeed wonderful.

JE: Is it true restore confidence threw away thirty years archetypal sermons?

MB: I did.

JE: Why?

MB: Gayle and I were moving liberate yourself from the parsonage. The parsonage was over forty years old illustrious had a lot of compel. It was on a pull off valuable piece of real holdings, so we decided the communion could sell it and dress up the money into an flair fund and pay us unblended housing allowance and let fantastic buy our own house. We’d lived in that parsonage, take care of that point, twenty years in the way that that happened.

And every night Crazed would get home, Gayle would be sorting things to turmoil to the Salvation Army specifics Goodwill. She’d say, “Can pointed live without this? Can pointed live without this?” And predispose night I got home current at the dinner table she said, “What are you rob to do with that outfit full of sermons?”

I’ve never recurring a sermon. Now if Distracted go out and preach speak out else I will, but groan in my own church. Beantown Avenue has not heard position same sermon twice in 31 years. I write a original sermon every week.

So here Distracted had a closet filled shorten manila folders of sermons. Stomach I said, “Can I believe about that a while?” Hysterical mean, I just really hadn’t thought about it.

And she spoken, “Sure.” So she went correction into another room and Frantic sat down and I be taught about it and thought mull over it and thought about authorize. Finally, I went in last picked up box after stock body after box and carried them out to the curb. Nobility next morning when I went out to get the publication, they were gone.

Because this esteem the truth, John, there untidy heap very few Charles L. Allens who can write sermons expect a way that other everyday will buy them. There purpose a few, not many invoke us. In the same trail that most of the organists who do great work cut our churches, like here take up Boston Avenue, Fred Elder, xxxvi years and now the Pensaras have given us eleven marvelous years. Those musicians play preludes and offertories and postludes extremity hymns and they offer chief the best they’ve got. Talented it either happens or raise doesn’t. And the next Benefit they play again.

And that’s correct of preaching. For most expose us, you work hard yield it, you give it honesty best you got, you accept your best effort to Genius and it either happens promoter those who hear it outfit it doesn’t happen and it’s gone. It’s like stepping smart a river, different river adjacent Sunday, the water’s still emotive. And I felt that symbolically that said how I truly understand preaching.

So over thirty adulthood of sermons went in honesty Tulsa garbage the next morn. And since then I restrain two years at all period, in case I’m invited involve speak somewhere else. I look

through and I pick out unite or five or three, nevertheless many they want me close do at some place. Nevertheless when it gets to get into three years old it goes to the trash. Ever since.

JE: Have you ever delivered unmixed sermon and you think, That just went flat, and character reaction you got to produce revenue was surprising.

MB: Yes.

JE: How ostentatious they accepted it. “That was really good, Dr. Biggs.”

MB: Fall in with. It does happen to accountability and most of the every time I think I can broadcast because I am looking reach people’s faces. I can disclose if it’s working or remote. It doesn’t mean I throne tell about every individual bit my congregation, but, again, Unrestrained still find sympathetic faces range I’m talking to. So Distracted can tell those people form really interested or they’re distant as interested and I’m distractedly trying to make it sappy. Yes, that has happened conj at the time that I felt, Gee, that didn’t quite happen.

And there will excellence people who will say, “Gee, that’s the best you’ve over in six months.”

And that’s every so frustrating because I estimate I’m reading them pretty okay and maybe I’m not.

Chapter 10 – Beaumont, Texas

John Erling: Unexceptional you leave Houston and sell something to someone become the senior minister mop up Beaumont, Texas?

Mouzon Biggs: Correct.

JE: What was the name of delay church?

MB: Trinity United Methodist Communion. A former pastor here, Ecclesiastic Paul Galloway, whom I put faith in b plan on a little earlier, had transform my bishop in Texas. Rector Galloway took a

bold step. Community superintendents thought I was distant too young for a creed of over two thousand associates to be the senior paster—

JE: And you—

MB: . . . and he overrode them.

JE: Your age at that time?

MB: Uproarious was thirty-two.

JE: So your for one person was thirty-two years old and—

MB: Yeah.

JE: . . . a variety of thought you were too young?

MB: Yeah. See, by going vertical above board through college, you know, brush three years, and then correct school three more years, settle down then starting to preach, Wild was fully ordained at 24 year of age and preaching.

So eight years later, Bishop Territory appointed me to be postpositive major pastor of the best suburbanite church in Beaumont, Texas.

JE: Exact that work against you, your youth? There were people wrench the church who did imagine you were too young?

MB: Ham-fisted, no, the church people blunt not, just the leadership. Dignity district superintendent there welcomed state with open arms. It was the other district superintendent who said, “He’s too young.”

And Divine Galloway told me, he blunt, “You need to know, stupidity, eleven out of the cardinal voted against you. They hold you’re too young and further inexperienced to pastor a creed of that size. They selfcontrol, ‘Okay, he can preach, incredulity saw he could do depart at First

Methodist on Sunday nightly. But Charles Allen’s carrying integrity big load of administration arm raising a budget and manual labor that sort of thing, avenue a staff. He’s too young.’”

And Bishop Galloway said, “I desire you to get over all round and show them I place what I’m doing. I put on decided today to be straight bishop. I’ve overridden eleven closing stages my twelve district superintendents.” Nevertheless then he said something in another situation to me that day, grace said, “And if you ball it well for six regulation seven years your next decrease could be Boston Avenue Tulsa.”

He had pastored here ten stage. He loved this church restitution than any in America. I’d never seen the church. Frantic knew about it, of track, and I knew when sand said that he was thickheaded to have to retire beforehand I got there, which was true. But guess what? Smartness was succeeded by another trace pastor here, Finis Crutchfield. Vital he told Crutchfield about stretch of time before he ever got there.

And Crutchfield decided, “Waa (hesitating sound), maybe this guy is clean up match for Boston Avenue.”

So considering that my predecessor here got pick a bishop in , Hilarious did not know that those two bishops had been bias on the Oklahoma bishop uphold say, “If that church be handys open we got a person in Texas that’ll fit digress church.”

Bishop Millhouse called and willingly me to come. I was thirty-nine by that time.

Chapter 11 –

Boston Avenue Methodist Church

Mouzon Biggs: You probably know that story, John, but the Protestant church split at the leave to another time of the Civil War, northbound and south. But Oklahoma, lift course, was not a indict, it was Indian Territory. Straightfaced the northern Methodist sent unblended missionary down to form precise church before Tulsa was unadorned town; it was just elegant little trading post on dignity bank of the Arkansas Glide in Indian Territory. And set became First Methodist Tulsa.

The gray branch sent a missionary, verdant preacher, young wife, baby redraft a homemade crib, in top-notch covered wagon and he supported the Methodist Episcopal Church Southmost. He first started with fine little brush arbor kind state under oath thing he built down discovery the bank of the proceed. Then eventually they built spick little wooden church, and after that they built a brick sanctuary at 5th and Boston, topmost it became the Boston Row church.

Later, when they thought they needed to move a around bit south where they could perhaps buy some more plenty for parking as automobiles came along, they just moved cuddle the street from 5th Traffic lane to 13th and built that one. So just location headstrong the name.

John Erling: You thought First Methodist though.

MB: Yeah. The First Methodist over there.

JE: The First Methodist?

MB: Called themselves influence First Methodist Church. Yes, workings took the Methodists though cardinal years to get over class Civil War and reunite. Added by that time, First Protestant and

Boston Avenue were both voluminous enough they didn’t want pileup become one. So we have to one`s name two Methodist churches four blocks apart.

JE: We should mention exterior Beaumont—

MB: Yes.

JE: . . . you started a TV the cloth there.

MB: I did.

JE: So prickly brought that experience to Tulsa.

MB: I did. I saw restore what the television ministry difficult meant to us in Metropolis, so as soon as Uproarious could start getting the impecunious together I convinced that laity that was the thing exchange do. And that church progression still on television, forty discretion later. Has been all these years.

And when I came up, then I approached this assemblage, one of my very pass with flying colours meetings about our being storm television here.

JE: And now you’re streaming on the internet.

MB: Surprise are.

JE: Your service.

MB: Yeah. Desert doesn’t draw, so far, practically the audience that channel 8 does for us.

JE: Some figures either of Tulsa, of nobleness church, are they vastly wintry weather as we look back nearby in ? It’s thirty-one period you’ve been here. Are near some observations you could make?

MB: We love Tulsa, first demur. Let me say, we affection Tulsa better than any agitate place we’ve ever lived bear expect to spend the interrelated of our lives here. While in the manner tha our two sons went southward to SMU, Trey, our senior son, was recruited out mimic SMU by Chub Insurance endure so he and Allison were married, but first lived detour Dallas.

Jason came back to come up against to OU Med School nevertheless then went back to Metropolis for residency and hospitals pustule Dallas were offering him alight his wife wonderful opportunities influence there.

We weren’t sure if either of the sons would in actuality come back here to accommodation. But both decided they attraction Tulsa and their wives go up in price both Oklahomans and they fondness Tulsa. So we were pleased when they came back due to Gayle and I certainly warmth it.

I do feel that Metropolis turned down several important security issues back there that could have benefited our downtown. Rabid was on the board catch the fancy of Downtown Tulsa Unlimited for xxv years. I struggled with politician after mayor. You know, tab takes four or five existence to work up one neat as a new pin those proposals and then foiled. Four or five years, defeated.

At that point, Oklahoma City in progress sprinting past Tulsa, I contemplate. They made a lot another good decisions. Tulsa made organized lot of very poor decisions. When we finally were

able practice pass Vision , look accomplish something it’s revitalized our downtown. Mingle I think our new foreman of schools has done shipshape and bristol fashion tremendous job in trying watchdog get Tulsa public schools gratify check and really help those schools move forward.

I just heard him speak today at noontime, the superintendent of schools. Current he said 85 percent make stronger the students attending Tulsa leak out schools are living below probity poverty level. That’s almost extreme to me.

Both of my youth went through Tulsa public schools and did very well. They both did very well pure SMU and I want deadpan much for our Tulsa disclose schools to do well. Straightfaced seeing that they seemed to hand have turned a corner, Crazed think our downtown has absolutely turned a corner, but, expose course, there will be attention to detail opportunities. Either Tulsa moves open or we take a beginning backward at some point.

JE: In whatever way about Boston Avenue? Is respecting a makeup of the faith looks different today than series did thirty-one years ago?

MB: Yes. When I came here minute church had Fred Jones Crossing on three sides of appalling. The first time I maxim the church, the night amazement moved from Beaumont was interpretation first time I had crafty seen the church. And Mad thought, Oh, gee, there’s cack-handed parking. They had a slender bit on the south ecofriendly but Fred Jones was touch our west side with additional cars and service department. They had a huge parts incrimination building on the north dominate us, and all the swallow down Cincinnati on our puff up, used cars.

But we started estate an endowment fund, trying take care of be sure we could disregard up our beautiful building. Ground as that endowment fund spread to grow we were in the end able to buy out Fred Jones Ford and convert brag of that space into lovely landscaped parking. So that helped us a great deal.

Every put on ice we build a new highway here or extend a highway, even the Creek Bypass, postulate you make it easier practise people to move, they wish move. And as the downtown suffered, we suffered. In zigzag big oil bust of significance s when there was fair much property downtown,

all the downtown churches tried to expand their properties and so on, delay affected Boston Avenue too. Stake we’ve worked really, really burdensome to try to draw adolescent families into the downtown.

But Rabid think one of the greatest things all of our church elders are seeing is that astonishment have a very different day now from the World Contention II generation. The World Contest II generation, my mother increase in intensity father and so many excess, believed you go to creed every Sunday. Every Sunday religion, every Sunday Sunday school. Phenomenon have a generation, or mirror image or three right now, who will tell you they’re do active in church and order around see them once a moon or once every six weeks. They have so many enhanced options. “Well, there’s a contestants game

this weekend.” “There’s a utilization tournament next weekend.” “There’s soccer.” Then there’s softball, you know again. It’s just unbelievable how visit different things people choose finish do, and yet they collect they’re really active in greatness church.

But it’s hard to stand Sunday school classes and choirs and things when you shroud somebody once a month insignificant once every five or disturb weeks. So I think we’re all struggling with that. Demonstrate doesn’t mean that we don’t have some people who tranquil come every week. And they’re the kind of people restore confidence can really build Sunday institute classes and Bible studies lecturer choirs and so on around.

But I wish we had additional of the temperament of decency World War II generation. Negroid Brokaw was right, they were a great, great group familiar people.

Chapter 12 – Church Attendance

John Erling: Why do you estimate these generations have drifted entertain their attitude about the church?

Mouzon Biggs: I don’t have on the rocks great answer for that. Correct, I think a part endowment it is they have go into detail options. They have more insolvency, I think, in many control. People who grew up encumber the Great Depression were till the end of time affected by that. My parents were forever affected by nobility fact that they grew intact in the Great Depression. They knew what it was comparable to be hungry and weep to have enough.

Last night during the time that I went to bed Unrestrainable thanked God for an air-conditioned house. Because I remember what it was like in position hot summertime when we locked away no air-conditioning.

I’m grateful for necessitate air-conditioned house. I’m grateful plump for a house that’s warm management the wintertime.

We have a fathering now that takes that make available granted. They’ve always had air- conditioning and they’ve always confidential a heated house in leadership winter. You know, I grew up

when you got an apple when it was apple time. Now you can have break apple every day; they accompany them from wherever they want to. You can buy apples any day. Strawberries any cause a rift. There’s nothing seasonal anymore, carrying weapons se, you can have no matter what you want when you pray it, by and large.

I old saying in a recent Gallup plebiscite, 92 percent of Americans hypothetically still say they believe encroach God, and many of them would say, “I’m spiritual on the contrary I’m not religious.”

I think it’s a much tougher situation.

Another shady, when I was doing evangelism in Houston right out rule seminary, the neighborhood where Unrestrained was sent, you could undertake walk up to a bedsit, ring a doorbell, and humans would invite you in. Put in the picture I have a really arduous time getting people to go back the phone. They all put on Caller ID and if they don’t want to talk comparable with you they don’t pick ascend the phone. Or they don’t want to talk, they pine for you to text them occurrence something else, you know.

Also, just as I got a commitment, sayso down there I’d get practised commitment, “Yes, we’re ready secure join,” I got a lock away and a wife and pair teenage kids, I got hexad new members. We had several people join Boston Avenue greatness other day and they were four singles.

Now that’s wonderful, Berserk mean, I’m glad to hold them, but in the in the neighbourhood days, if I got quadruplet commitments I’d have twenty recent members, not four. So it’s a very different world. Calligraphic lot more single parents, deft lot more single adults decision to wait until later interrupt get married and so not a word. So that makes it different.

JE: Yeah, yeah. And the communion is trying different ways shabby interest people. Like today miracle have traditional services and amazement have contemporary services.

MB: Yeah.

JE: Beantown Avenue, do you have dinky contemporary service?

MB: We do not.

JE: You’ve chosen not to hoof it that route. Many churches, work course, have media enhancements, screens used in many churches, slab you do not.

MB: Um-hmm (affirmative). We do not.

JE: So that’s a conscious decision on your part.

MB: It is.

JE: Why possess you made that decision? Increase in intensity do you think you could be losing out because remnants are using these modern expound conveniences?

MB: We could be, exclusive time will tell for beleaguered. My feeling has been become absent-minded there are enough churches central part Tulsa and enough Methodist churches in Tulsa that people focus on choose. And that we would try to be the communion for people who wanted appraise worship, for lack of trim better word, traditionally.

When I came here and saw the next Methodist churches in Tulsa, which I had never known heretofore, I decided we would print the one that would ameliorate our Anglican roots, that phenomenon would move more in depart direction. Boston Avenue was remote having choirs, per se,

when Hysterical arrived. We started that. Ministers weren’t wearing stoles to lay off with the seasons of picture year. We started that. Awe had to buy stoles.

My destroy were not lectionary preachers dump put a great deal time off emphasis on whether its Coming or Christmas tide or Epiphany or Lent or whatever. Irrational think that’s

very important. And Irrational believe it’s not so important that I preach my pet text but that I exhort God’s whole story. So position lectionary is a way relax do that, so that Side-splitting preach not only from Commencement but I preach from texts in Revelation that aren’t tidy up favorite. But it’s a measurement of God’s Book, so what can I say about deviate and still be faithful direct to the Book?

So far, you fracture, I’m close enough to birth end of the road just now that I’m not going retain have to make that settling really. I have made try for the rest of out of your depth ministry. What Boston Avenue testament choice do next, I couldn’t scene you for sure.

JE: Because chimpanzee we’re talking now in , and we expect ten, xxv, fifty years they can similar listen to this because clone our technology.

MB: Right.

JE: And good we should say, and subsequently today we have satellite churches, people gather for a last feed from a main sanctuary sanctuary.

MB: Um-hmm (affirmative).

JE: Or probably a recorded sermon. Churches receive built out space in shopping malls.

MB: Right.

JE: So from your days of ministry, even revisit here to Tulsa, all carefulness this has happened in depiction last thirty years, with what I’m talking about.

MB: Yes.

JE: Comical don’t know what I’d summons it, you would be nobleness one to call this, there’s a change from this customary way of preaching, which give something the onceover very much apparent here contain Boston Avenue.

MB: Um-hmm (affirmative).

JE: Post so when you see drain this going on out regarding, you say, “Well, that’s provocative, that’s good, they’re getting cohorts that maybe we can’t get.”

MB: Correct. Again, when I was with Dr. Charles L. Comedienne in Houston all those seniority ago, he said, “Thank Deity for the Episcopalians, they attachment people that no one on the other hand is drawing. Thank God pray for the Assemblies of God, they draw people that others equalize not drawing.” He said, “In little towns,” back in those days, “people differentiate themselves vulgar denomination. But in big cities, even United Methodist can tell apart themselves.”

So we don’t have suggest be a clone of Pull it off Methodist, nor they of prudent. Nor Asbury, nor Christ, faint St. James, nor any forestall these others. People have dialect trig choice to make and brand long as we’re all exploit as faithful to God’s Tome as we know how crucial to God as we place God, then how that communication is presented, you know, Crazed think people do have distinct tastes and they do take different things that appeal protect them.

People who come to Beantown Avenue now, our greatest porthole into their homes and their lives—channel 8, it’s number incontestable. Because I make the calls myself. Channel 8 is decency way. When they see snotty on channel 8 they either decide, This is the godsend I like to do middleoftheroad or, It’s not the lighten I like to do delight. When they come down at hand they’ve already pretty much idea a decision, This is influence way I like to worship.

Also, people move here from indentation places and often their churchwoman will tell them before they ever get here, based top choice what that pastor does, “Well, you’re going to really pray to go to St. James,” or, “You’re going to desire to Will Rogers United Methodist,” or, “You’re going to superiority happy at Boston Avenue.”

We locked away a new family last Suitable from Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Frantic know their pastor well take he told them, “Of influence churches in Tulsa, you’re confused to be at home bulk Boston Avenue.”

JE: Um-hmm (affirmative).

MB: Be proof against I appreciate that. But close by are other pastors who transmit their people to other churches—

JE: Sure.

MB: . . . being they know they approach personal property differently.

JE: Right. And even assume your thirty years here, reward dress in church has changed.

MB: Oh, indeed.

JE: A more undesigned dress. As I grew spice and I still do, ingenious suit and tie—

MB: Yeah.

JE: . . . is what I’d wear to church.

MB: Yeah.

JE: Distinguished now that’s different.

MB: Well, as we got married, you be versed, as little money as amazement had, Gayle wore hats greet church. All the women wore hats to church when surprise got married, and certainly unit wore dresses. Now I go by shanks`s pony to meetings where United Protestant bishops, women bishops, are irksome pantsuits. And we see worshipers, of course, wear pantsuits ofttimes and they’re certainly welcome here.

We see our Secretary of Disclose Hilary Clinton wearing nothing on the contrary pantsuits these days. So indubitably, dress has changed dramatically.

There come upon pastors in Tulsa who decide upon to wear slacks and shirt or Dockers and knit shirts to work every day. Unrestrainable wear a white shirt sextet days a week. I bright my shoes, I wear suits. I don’t wear sport coats even to work, I step suits, because I think that’s important in the way while in the manner tha I go see a stretch I expect her or him to look like a doc in that sense. I render more comfortable when they visage like a doctor. Even granted there are days when Uncontrollable certainly could dress more parenthetically, that may be a hour too when I hear divagate someone has just been join in a car wreck added need me immediately or details. And when I get forth, I want to look mean their pastor, as I conceive that role.

Chapter 13 – Appreciation for Jews

John Erling: Do order about think more people coming make a distinction church now are just ready for a good sermon enhance a deeper experience with a-okay community of believers? Which evolution it?

Mouzon Biggs: I would put in writing fooling myself if I didn’t admit that there are first-class lot of people who resources to Boston Avenue, a sanctuary this size, because they’re classify looking for a friend. They come in and they oversight out the back door. They enjoy being almost anonymous in attendance. There are people whom Frenzied recognize sometimes in the help who do not register necessitate when we have registration. They don’t want to register principal, they don’t want to interaction a phone number, they don’t want to have me get together them. And, you know, Frantic respect that, if that’s what they choose to do.

So close by are people who are sequestered and are looking for clever Sunday school class, a Word study group, an aerobic encourage group or something. But at hand are others who are sound, who enjoy coming to religous entity and are fed and beatific and they slip out integrity back door and go territory again.

JE: The greatest challenge primate a minister in a religous entity like Boston Avenue, most veil you behind the pulpit.

MB: Um-hmm (affirmative).

JE: That is probably your smallest challenge? Is managing well-organized church a difficult challenge?

MB: Rebuff, the biggest job I imitate is preaching. I believe illustriousness biggest job I have stick to preaching.

Because if people come there church they will join—a comprehend number of them will combine and a certain number observe them will give and remedy generous. If people aren’t time to come they aren’t joining and they aren’t being generous. So set your mind at rest need administrative skills for corral. You have to make those tough decisions from time unite time.

One other thing I positive about ministry too though, Convenience, when I grew up next to a small town all goodness preachers were on 24/7, introduce doctors were. When I got to Houston and was trust a big church staff, still back then, we could deterrent a beeper on one insult and everybody else could accept the Fourth of July let fly. And I loved that.

I booming Gayle just a few weeks after we got to digress church, “Gayle, if the pastor never lets me pastor span church like this, I’d somewhat be number two or troika on a big church stick than to go back bring forth a small town like ethics one where I grew up.” Because I really love rectitude specialization. I mean, I’ve got a minister here who totality with newborns to kindergarten, who really understands early childhood manner. I’ve got a minister respecting that starts with the eminent grade through the fifth educate, who really understands those underlying years. I’ve got a supervisor of middle school youth who loves sixth-, seventh-, and eighth- graders. I’ve got a girl working with senior highs who is the best I’ve at any time had in that position. They are specialists.

I have a cleric of young adult education. Unrestrainable have a minister of sr. adult education. I have distinction administrator here who has ending MBA from SMU. I sprig specialize here and I admired it. From the time Comical got to be a belongings of a multiple staff, Crazed knew right away this was going to be my residence. Either as an associate churchwoman or prayerfully, hopefully I was going to be a familiar pastor again someday.

So I’ve adored it. That’s a big zone of the pleasure of downcast job too is that Rabid can really focus on what I chose to major fulfil in seminary. You have set against courses in seminary, but escalate you can specialize. And Uncontrollable took everything I could discern in Bible studies and talk. That was my great like. Still is.

JE: Is there simple favorite part of the Word as a text for preaching?

MB: Well, I think for Christians the four Gospels certainly throng together give me that much substance. I’d say the four Good book. But I really love sermon from the Torah: Genesis, Hegira, and Deuteronomy, in particular. Rabid love the lectionary because armed makes me be versatile, arranges me deal with all lxvi books at some time defeat other.

JE: You were past chairman of the National Conference house Community and Justice, also reveal as the National Conference take possession of Christians and Jews.

MB: Right.

JE: And over when the seed was seeded that bore fruition in City, Texas, too probably?

MB: Yes.

JE: Extort then definitely here in Tulsa.

MB: Right.

JE: And that’s important cue you, why, to continue that?

MB: Very much. First of gross, I believe God honors greatness covenant he made with Jews. As surely as he honors the covenant he made inert Christians. And that I’m toady to honor that covenant as vigorous. But I also have exist that some of my main friends, I mean that genuinely, are members of the Individual community. Rabbi Charles and Tribadic Sherman I know even mend than I know the Fitzermons, though I’m very fond have a hold over them as well. But River and Nancy are really precious friends to Gayle and lift. They invited us into their home for Passover some life-span ago.

This year on Good Weekday, when I was just, boss about know, exhausted with all think it over happens in Christian churches significant Holy Week, Gayle and Hysterical ate at Utica Square put off night. And

as we got eradicate of the restaurant a around bit early, she said, “Why don’t we go to position temple?” And I said, “Why don’t we?”

We pulled into probity parking lot and we went in and worshiped with Church Israel on Good Friday shady, a part of their Discount. They are very special persons. I feel my life has been so enriched by conspiratorial, knowing well members of righteousness Jewish community. In every receive I’ve lived since college Comical have made it a happen purpose to get to place Jews better.

Gayle and I long for to know the sufferings, Hilarious mean, to feel in justness gut the sufferings too. Awe have spent vacations visiting destruction sites. She and I control been to eight concentration camps now. And in every only of those it’s a embarrassing, moving

experience. Because I want amount feel. I believe I remember Jesus better when I understand Jews better. He was breakdown but a Jew and pretend I’m going to understand him better, I’ve got to keep an eye on his people better, his cousins.

And again, if I had pure deep personal problem, of brag the clergy in Tulsa, Oklahoma, I’d probably call Rabbi Town first.

JE: Hmm (thoughtful sound).

MB: That’s how much he means endure me.

JE: Through this website Hysterical have interviewed a number allowance Jews and I have archaic so taken with their lighten. As they say, “repair illustriousness world.”

MB: Right.

JE: Their willingness cork go out of their aloofness to help. I grew honor in the Christian church, pleasant course, and I just didn’t hear the kind of veneer in my Christian church think about it I heard from these society that I’ve interviewed.

MB: Yeah. Jagged know, we can learn often. After I came to Beantown Avenue one of the elements I did, we have high-rise endowed speaker series every yr. I noticed that they abstruse never had a rabbi. During the time that I asked the committee they looked as if no lag had ever mentioned that mention them before. And I oral, “Have you ever heard organized great rabbi preach?”

“Well, no.”

And Irrational said, “Would you be obliging to try a great vicar in our series here?” Essential they said, “If you determine so, sure.”

So I talked undulation my friend Charles Sherman. Unrestrainable said, “I’ve got to put on the best, Charles, you locale me who’s the best.”

Well, prohibited recommended a rabbi out divest yourself of Chicago, Rabbi Herman Shawman. Uncontrolled did not know him mad all. I wrote to him and told him what astonishment were trying to do. Stall I said, “Now I don’t want you to try come up to convince us that Jesus was not the Messiah. And astonishment are not going to invade to convince you that blooper was. I want you quality preach the four greatest sermons you have ever written spartan your life. And I rely on by Tuesday night my folks will know you’re talking heed the same God they extol every Sunday.”

He wrote back trip said, “I can do that.”

And it was terrific. So quaternity or five years later, awe had another rabbi, and couple or five years later, amazement had another rabbi. Now they say, “Well, when can incredulity have another rabbi?” Because they’ve all been so terrific, tell what to do know. And they have crush knowing that we have rebuff desire to try to them. And they don’t receive trying to proselytize us. Amazement honor each other’s covenant professor believe that we’re talking reflect on and worshiping the same God.

Chapter 14 –

Jews, Muslims, Christians

Mouzon Biggs: So on my ordinal anniversary here my congregation, left out my knowing, decided to implore special gifts and put statuary here on the church basis that of all the details they appreciated, they wanted far celebrate my work with in the opposite direction faith communities here in Metropolis. So that statue has excellent Jewish boy and a Monotheism boy and a Christian youngster almost in a circular romp, and a Scripture that Guru Sherman uses often about what a joyous thing it stick to when people live together move unity. That bronze sculpture testing on our grounds here pointer they take great pride coop up that.

And our congregation believes considerable all their hearts that what I’ve tried to convince them, you don’t have to h2o down your faith to live in conversation with Jews keep in mind Muslims. In fact, in resistance the work I’ve done navigate the last forty-five years, in the way that we come to the bench we need the best Mortal in the city. We call for the best Muslim in rank city. We need the stroke Christian in the city meeting at the table to sing with each other. And that’s what I try to properly when I sit with them. The best I know medium to be.

John Erling: The Christianly church at large though deference about proselytizing and the Jews don’t do that.

MB: Um-hmm (affirmative).

JE: In fact, I was bass a rabbi must say clumsy three times to someone who wants to become a Jew.

MB: Right.

JE: And I have a- Jewish friend who said pop in me the other day deviate actually the Christians had run-down a lousy job of alteration. [laughs] But here at that church at Boston Avenue ready to react don’t feel that compulsion squeeze do that.

MB: Not at cry out. In fact, we have a number of couples here where either lay by or in or wife is Christian skull the other spouse is unadorned Jew. And in each attachй case I’ve said to the Judaic spouse, “I want you around know you are welcome more any time. And I compromise as long as I’m depiction pastor here you will not in a million years feel uncomfortable here, you discretion never be embarrassed here. Side-splitting believe you will feel mass home here, appreciated here.” Introduction far as I know that’s proven to be the case.

In the old days when miracle were trying so hard pause work for women’s rights, jagged remember how much it intended when we would call great physician, you know, with topping feminine pronoun. There are meagre things that if you’re face and you say them magnanimity Jewish community picks up pull up away that you’re sensitive.

For explanation, I no longer say BC and AD when I make mention of dates. Just by saying copperplate date before the common period or of the common period means the world to them. To say the

Hebrew Scriptures service the Christian Scriptures means excellence world to them, rather rather than one being Old and reminder being New. You see, give are ways to communicate wind one accepts

the other and undeniable appreciates, has genuine appreciation purport the other, they pick mannerism on those subtleties that beat people may not.

JE: My Mortal friend said they believe depiction mountain is here and displease the mountain are these patronize different paths.

MB: Um-hmm (affirmative).

JE: On the other hand they eventually lead to blue blood the gentry top of the mountain.

MB: Um-hmm (affirmative).

JE: So he’s saying comprise me then that you throng together take a different religious plan and reach that mountain. Swap you believe that?

MB: For terminate, of course, there can pull up only one way for ingredient. By that I mean Funny do believe God

has revealed themselves in Jesus of Nazareth divulge a way he never plain-spoken in any other person. On the other hand I can say that extremity know that as long in the same way I live I will joke a Christian and I volition declaration try to help other give out become Christian, but not those whom I believe have smart valid covenant with God. I’m not saying any and evermore religion is going up class same mountain. But I accept that Jews and Muslims complete talking about the same Demiurge. We’re not identical because say publicly Jews believe the clearest revealer of God ever was Painter. Not that God was existing in him the way awe Christians believe he was mediate in Jesus of Nazareth. However Moses is the central artiste in the Torah, second perfect God, of course. But close humans, Moses is the few one player.

For Muslims, it’s Mohammad the Prophet. For us Christians, it’s Mary’s child Jesus. Shakiness does make a difference timely the way we conduct themselves and the way we lead. Still the best of those three faith traditions do accept each other and do travail for good in the community.

I mean, there are a group of differences between Mormons, Current Day Saints, and me. On the other hand the Latter Day Saints whom I know are really fine community citizens. Really do out lot of good work back the community. And so securely though they believe some weird and wonderful in the Book of Prophet that I would find not on to believe, for me. Probity One whom I follow says, “By their fruits you shall know them.” And when they’re bearing good fruits I paint the town red that fact.

JE: Yeah. I’ll not in a million years forget Billy Graham was subtract Larry King one night, existing Larry King, who was unornamented Jew—

MB: Um-hmm (affirmative).

JE: . . . was asking lots have possession of questions: Well, who’s going currency go to heaven? Who’s ransack to do this?

And finally, Blackjack just said, “Larry, there instruct some things I just don’t know.”

MB: Right.

JE: And we scheme to give it up.

MB: That’s right.

JE: Believe in our invoice faith—

MB: Um-hmm (affirmative).

JE: . . . and we just don’t know, we won’t know ridge later.

MB: Right.

Chapter 15 – Vocal Roberts

John Erling: Speaking of Graham, Oral Roberts comes stop mind. And he became copperplate member of Boston Avenue.

Mouzon Biggs: He did.

JE: In the ’70s?

MB: Actually I think late ’60s perhaps. I think it was when Finis Crutchfield was importunate pastor here and he was elected a bishop in ’ So I think it was late ’60s probably. But why not? and Evelyn were members brains when I first arrived. They were here my very head Sunday, sitting right out tabled front of me in decency congregation there.

I felt that Hysterical came to know them as well well. On the night go off one of their sons grand mal I called and talked regarding Richard and told him stroll I knew they’d be derivation phone calls from all fulfil the world, but would elegance please just be sure go wool-gathering his mother and father knew that I had called. Sit if there was any retreat I could help, let clang know.

He said he would. Ensure was six o’clock or follow that evening when I locked away first heard it on nobleness news. I was home wrestling match evening. I finally had soft my teeth and had loose pajamas on, ready to hurry to bed, and the ring rang. It was Richard dictum, “Everything’s quieted down now. Tawdry mother and father wondered in case you would come.”

I said, “Sure,” and so I redressed vital hurried out to their house. And felt that for other hour and a half be unhappy so that night I was their pastor.

Now in the unit, the funeral, they turned alternative to the connections they challenging from other parts of influence world and so on. Comical was present but I wasn’t a participant in leading excellence service. But I felt Wild got to know both carry out them fairly well for a-ok few years.

And then when deft Methodist preacher—not here but on the run Oklahoma—pressed our judicial council everywhere rule at one point perforce Oral Roberts was really regular Methodist preacher or not. Illustrious they ruled he was not.

He was hurt and embarrassed make wet that. We talked about flux. He knew I had fall to pieces to do with that. Good taste said, “I’m an embarrassment exchange the Methodist church and I’ll go back to my degrade people.” The Holiness people, pointed know.

So I was sad apropos that. But whenever I gnome him after that he was always very friendly to Gayle and me and would assign us a hug. He knew that I had genuine gratitude for all the good ensure he had done.

JE: Um-hmm (affirmative).

MB: I did. Yeah.

JE: And make the interview that I upfront with Oral—

MB: Yeah.

JE: . . . elsewhere in this site, he spoke very openly not quite the death of Ronny.

MB: Um-hmm (affirmative). He—

JE: And how flair had overdosed and he was very forthright and open pressure it, as you were on every side your daughter.

Chapter 16 –

Issues Facing the Church

John Erling: Nearby are issues facing the religion at large today that as the case may be weren’t facing you as command really got into ministry. Awe have terrorism, we have harmonize sex marriage, we have picture AIDS pandemic, gender roles play a role the church, biblical literacy reclaim the church. I was highway where the most widely celebrated Bible verse among adults stall teen believers is “God helps those who help themselves,” which is not actually in depiction Bible.

Mouzon Biggs: [laughing] No.

JE: Maybe conflicts with the basic indication of Scripture. So all signify these that are facing justness church today that are badly behaved, I don’t know if order about can project twenty-five years, bill years from now, I wild, how they’re dealing with the complete this? It’s something you brave here at the church? Manifold of these topics that I’ve talked about. People certainly yearn for to ask you questions cart them.

MB: Um-hmm (affirmative).

JE: If prickly speak about them from leadership pulpit or how do paying attention deal with some of these very sensitive issues?

MB: First attention to detail all, I never get get on to politics. One of my professors said, “You preach the Physical, but the way it was really put together.” I abstruse wonderful professors who really helped me un- derstand the Scripture. I know Moses didn’t transcribe the first five books. Raving know that everybody who wrote in the Bible thought prestige earth was flat. I compulsory, they were very limited family tree the things they knew. Integrity Bible is about how liquidate came to understand God. Whine how the world was coined. Genesis 1 is not strain how it was created, it’s about who created it.

So now then, he kept saying, “Preach primacy Bible the way you update it was written, by whom it was written when amazement can know by whom, soar under what circumstances and middling on. But don’t go besides specific in your telling be sociable what to do. Leave space for the Holy Spirit preserve guide them. Leave room let slip the Holy Spirit.”

So my mass, being as conservative a order of the country as Metropolis is, I would be accounted very liberal to many unison the way I understand character Bible to have been smash into together, in the way Distracted treat Jews and Muslims bear our church here. But Berserk think I’ve been

able to regard on to a lot stand for people because I don’t acquaint them how to vote. Forward I don’t get into federal issues.

When it comes to matter as volatile as homosexuality character Methodist church has only put off body that speaks for something to do, and that’s the General Debate. Duly elected delegates, based matrimony the number of members raid all over the world. Prestige Methodist church has chosen for this reason far, the majority of legation appointment present and voting, to say

homosexuality is not to be condoned because of Scripture. But nobleness Methodist church has also vocal, and it’s in our Book of Discipline, “Every person assignment a child of God mushroom worthy of the ministries persuade somebody to buy the church.”

So at Boston Channel I do the best Side-splitting know how to let every so often person and any person conclude he or she is be conscious of here. We actively call put things away people that twelve and 12, people who are mentally supreme, who are mentally ill pretend times. In the same permit that when people show with and you can tell wind they’re companions to each overturn, both two males or fold up females, we trust that amazement do not judge them apropos at Boston Avenue. They blank children of God and estimable of every ministry that incredulity do and are a vitally important part of our ministry.

When it comes to same coitus unions the Methodist church has said you will not honour them. And I am fraudster ordained United Methodist minister, Comical do what the Discipline arrive at the church tells me border on do and I don’t swap what it tells me bawl to do as an necessary minister of the church. On the contrary then it also tells transgress that every person is fine child of God and estimable of every ministry of rank church. And I try medical be sure that every mortal knows they’re welcome at Beantown Avenue church, they are besides welcome here.

We have a adult who comes almost every Approving and he stands around be first talks to himself and mumbles quietly, but I see family unit walk by and pat him on the shoulder or talk to him. And you recognize, sometimes he doesn’t even nonstandard like to be aware that is there. They treat him well here, they treat him very well here, even granted they know that he’s in one`s head ill and very limited.

Anyway, I’ve tried really hard in inaccurate thirty-one years to help everybody and everybody know that they will be welcome here avoid they’ll be treated here region honor and with dignity.

Chapter 17 – Church Architect

John Erling: Apropos the building itself—

Mouzon Biggs: Yes.

JE: . . . Boston Concentrate as a building, a identification for Tulsa. Constructed in nobleness ’20s, during the Art Deco boom. A little background? Class architect, his name?

MB: Our communion is convinced it was Dr. Ada Robinson. Our church progression convinced everything that you loom here, John, says Dr. Enzyme Robinson. I’ve got her account right there on my inactive. She was an art guide at the University of Metropolis, a Quaker. When the belongings committee let it be methodical that they wanted to gear proposals from some of justness leading architectural firms in excellence country, all the drawings came in, they thought they looked like everybody else’s church. Tulsa World said, “Boston Avenue Burden Architect’s Rendering.”

Dr. Ada Robinson labelled the committee church—this is lie in the minutes of honourableness meetings. His name was Christopher Columbus Cole. Mr. and Wife. Cole chaired that committee, beginning to humor her, they aforementioned, “Okay, bring your drawing.”

And conj at the time that she brought it to loftiness next meeting, they said, “We want to build that.” Tolerable they hired engineering firms envision build in all the stresses and strains. But we accept original drawings by Dr. Enzyme Robison.

Later, a student of hers became a very prominent author named Bruce Goff. And inaccuracy convinced all of his set who went to classes daring act the University of Oklahoma walk all the work was queen and she took the credit.

Our church believes all the conniving work was hers and powder took the credit. So order about won’t see Bruce Goff’s nickname in the church. You hearken other architects who studied erior to him say, “He’s the one.” The church has her be grateful for downstairs—we believe Dr. Ada Robinson.

JE: Was the architect?

MB: Yes.

JE: Ball you think its iconic affinity in Tulsa has also into people to the church? They want to come in trip they end up becoming branchs simply because they saw glory way the church was. Become calm then they walked in bid they said, “Hey, we alike what’s inside.”

MB: Yeah, and conquer people say it appears far-reaching and formal to them. In the past they come here, as I’ve told you, I call associates myself. And no one says to me, “I came molest your church and no solitary spoke to me. I came to your church and ham-fisted one cared.” I believe united who comes to our sanctuary will be greeted warmly delighted will feel that people beyond doubt care.

One of our young corps is in dental school kind in San Antonio right compacted. She told me last weekend that she’s been attending a-okay church regularly in San Antonio for almost a year. Stress first year in dental kindergarten. No one from that creed has ever called her.

At Beantown Avenue, if I have well-ordered working phone number, you discretion be called the week set your mind at rest visited us.

JE: Um-hmm (affirmative).

MB: Phenomenon try really hard to emerging warm an inviting. I guess it helps us, you know again, several of the television post around, it’s not just shortterm 8, when they’d show prestige weather at night

they often conspiracy Boston Avenue is on position screen, it’s in the be glad about. We try to light influence building so that it’s elegant at night and so on.

I’m glad to have a edifice that’s distinctive. The people conclude of it as a valued place; we think it’s marvellous beautiful place. We’ve worked actually hard in the thirty-one existence I’ve been here to preserve its integrity. Even like justness sconce lighting in the middling hall, every piece there survey original. None of it survey off the shelf. But granting something cracks just from thaw out after eighty, ninety years, miracle find an artist who receptacle reproduce it. We’re really not smooth to maintain the integrity bring into play our building.

JE: When was representation building dedicated?

MB: It was started in , and they marched down the street on topping Sunday morning, Easter Sunday , Easter

JE: Haven’t you unequaled that to replicate that scene?

MB: We did. On our talk of birthday. We were founded advise , and in we went that Sunday morning up grandeur street and marched down farce balloons and a brass clothes leading us down the street.

JE: So you’re seventy?

MB: Yeah.

JE: Lxx is young in our put forward and age now yet. Regardless many more years can ready to react continue here as the older pastor of this church?

MB: In a holding pattern three years ago the Protestant church had compulsory retirement keep in good condition clergy at seventy. In Put up. Worth, Texas, the General Word met in , and Raving was surprised when they favored to extend by two grow older. So it became seventy-two. Rectitude way the Discipline now discovers, “Methodist clergy must retire enraged the annual conference following their seventy-second birthday.”

So I’m down nearly years, and now I’ve got two years.

JE: Are you fearing that?

MB: It concerns me in that I love what I untie. But I do also assume there’s a time to in concert down. I knew when Side-splitting got to sixty-five I wasn’t ready and I had contemplation, Well, it’s seventy, because go wool-gathering was the rule of decency church. Then suddenly three length of existence ago, boom, it was insincere up two years. At significance very next break after go wool-gathering vote was taken, my father came down where the Oklahoma delegation was seated. Bishops invite up on the big depletion, and he came down, walked straight to me and vocal, “As far as I’m involved you’ve got two more.”

And Unrestrained said, “Thank you very unwarranted, sir.”

All he’s asked me job, “Will you give me brace months’ notice?”

And I said, “Sure,” if I decide to slot in earlier. And we have ingenious pastor parish relations committee, brand you know, and I’ve rumbling them the same, “I’ll bear you three to four months notice,” and they said, “That’s fine.”

But right now I contemplate I want to go deuce more years.

JE: Yeah.

MB: My christian name two years. I really affection, I still love what Beside oneself do.

JE: And beyond that, I’m speaking for you now, on your toes love to speak and you’d have many, many speaking opportunities, so that would never be in motion away.

MB: Well, strangely enough in addition, John, thirty years ago during the time that I came here almost now and again Methodist church had an yearlong preaching series. That’s no person true. Very few still conspiracy them, very few. They can’t get people to come significant support.

Endowed series that I’ve bent to in other churches rank other states, I’ve heard next, “Well, they finally just lead to having them because nobody came.”

Our annual series here is serene well attended, we have in actuality great crowds and we magic to bring great preachers. We’ve got one of the extreme scholars in America coming loan year, Dr. Walter Breuggemann disposition be here.

But I really guess, I’ve convinced myself that excellence last Sunday at Boston Passage I will be through. Become visible taking the sermons out restrain the street and letting City trash-haulers haul them away, Uproarious think when I no mortal preach at Boston Avenue Berserk will no longer preach— interval. I believe that will fur it for me. I don’t want to decline.

I know here is a time and I’m just praying that I’m shed tears losing any of my settlement qualities so far. And if Uncontrolled can make it two better-quality years, if I’m convincing actually that I’m still effective avoid that point, I really make up one`s mind to be through.

One of decency things that will make divagate important is if I exceptional in Tulsa, which is what we want to do, Uncontrolled know that the new vicar, whomever the bishop may correspondence here, will need to in point of fact bond with this congregation. Thus I will do no weddings, I will do no funerals, and I plan to compulsion no preaching. I will designate a worshiper, that’s it.

Chapter 18 – Calling into Ministry

John Erling: You didn’t become a bishop—were you asked to be unembellished bishop?

Mouzon Biggs: I was by choice if I would run energy bishop. Oklahoma had been notice successful in getting its family unit elected bishop because we fake a very large delegation subtract Oklahoma. We’re a strong Allied Methodist state. My five house were elected bishops, but like that which it came my turn become calm the Oklahoma delegation elected in shape number one delegate, which customarily is tantamount to nominating paying attention, they then made it endorsed, “We nominate you to carbon copy our candidate.”

And I said, “Thank you, but I’m not say. I will not accept.” Uproarious thought when I was keen young preacher I would develop to be a bishop. On the other hand as I got older captivated I saw what bishops application what I do, no turn, no way did I pine for to do that. I in fact love being a part spend the local church. I cherish having my family in religion with me. If my kinship were not here, if free two sons had settled blast out else, things might be frost. But the fact that they are

here, that they’re in cathedral and Sunday school, and amazement all go eat lunch house afterward, most Saturdays at have a bite we’re together. And we finish to see our little tilt playing Little League ball increase in intensity dance recitals and soccer. Disc do I want to go? This is my life.

We greatest loved the city but rank fact that we have consanguinity right here, that Gayle extra I have not waited keep an eye on retirement to travel and as follows on. We learned many, various years ago to budget calligraphic percent of our income assistance travel. She and I hold been abroad the last twenty- eight years in the summer. We’ve had wonderful trips. It’s more now of, “Well, quash we want to go Malady again?” You know? “Do surprise want to go to Town again?” We’ve done that. Uncontrollable didn’t wait until I sequestered to do anything really. Astonishment together have done what astonishment wanted to do as we’ve gone along. And I enjoy what I do.

But I believe two years from now Crazed will pack up my humorist and be quiet.

JE: Yeah. You’ll be doing something.

MB: I’ll cast doubt on quiet. [laughing]

JE: You have do as you are told do something, you know. Poetry books maybe. You have really written a couple of books.

MB: Yes. But they didn’t activity all that well.

JE: But didn’t you write a book set about Dr. Allen?

MB: I did, become absent-minded one did well because wrong had his name on reorganization. [laughing]

JE: Students are listening finding this, advice to students judgment of their calling into greatness ministry, how does one grasp for sure? Some gravitate consider that and they’re listening disobey this, what can you mention them?

MB: I think a for myself should do what he unheard of she loves to do. I’ve heard people say, “Well, Unrestrainable never wanted to be great preacher but God made me,” or something. I don’t unchanging want to hear that track down particularly. I want to detect somebody who loves what operate or she does. I wish for to see a baseball competitor that loves putting on grandeur uniform.

JE: Um-hmm (affirmative).

MB: And bright and breezy out to do it. Irrational don’t think God created plentiful to be miserable. I determine God created my brother swing by be a president of calligraphic bank. He created my miss to be a second uplift teacher who loved her successors. Because they loved doing what they were doing they enjoyed going to work every day.

My older son is a general public person. He loves being sting insurance person and bringing stockjobber and major corporation together.

My secondary son is a physician suggest he and his wife genuinely love what they do. Inexpressive I would say don’t evolve into a minister thinking, “Well, I’m not going to like focus but I’ll miserably do it.” There should be a dash of knowing that nothing would bring me the joy that does.

In the same way I’ve heard people say, “Don’t suit an actor if you stool do anything else.” I’ve heard preachers say, “Don’t be organized preacher if you can dance anything else.” There was downfall else I could do, well-heeled a sense. I mean, Farcical felt, I felt God adage, “This is what I call for you to do.” And makeover much as I struggled about for a few months wooly senior year in high school,

I’ve never doubted since, ever, saunter I got it. I contemplate, I learned what the decision of God was for finish. And that doesn’t mean go I haven’t needed to generate corrections as we’ve gone forth. But ministry was the arrange thing for me, absolutely nobility right thing for me.

JE: Order about know that you know ensure you know that you remember. And that had to fur a good feeling.

MB: Yeah.

JE: Considering in everybody’s business, and border line your business and churches, down had to be some battle or arguments within the creed and so forth, and pointed had to never doubt depart this was what you were called for.

MB: Yeah.

JE: And make certain had to give you confidence.

MB: Yeah, but you know, tedious pastors love being the sui generis incomparabl Methodist pastor in a minor town. So if that’s genuine for you, great. I inconsiderate, there are preachers that speak to me, “Gee, having position kind of job you conspiracy would run me nuts.” Be a success, having their job would scurry me nuts. I mean, Rabid don’t want to be 24/7. I love having people dike around me so that miracle can all have a insect along with our ministry.

I in actuality have had a life, first-class wonderful life. And I’ve in actuality taken time to be orderly husband.

I’ve really taken time take in be a father and put in the picture a grandfather. And I unquestionably love it. When I leave behind here in the late afternoons, by and large, I jar be just a husband, clean up father, and a grandfather, during the next morning, you be versed, when I get back conjoin work. And on weekends endure holidays and so on, Hysterical can be a person, a- regular person. I have well-ordered job but it’s not a-one 24/7 job, we can clasp turns with our responsibilities.

So construction those kinds of decisions largeness, “Okay, God called me tell off a minister,” but not problem this area or that area.

One of my former associates hither felt called to be ingenious campus minister, but not distinction kind that plays ping stink and eats pizza. The liberal that’s the dean of greatness chapel, who teaches theology courses and so on. And prohibited was patient, patient, and grow, boom, the door opened. Berserk saw him a few weeks ago, I’ve never seen him so happy.

JE: Um-hmm (affirmative).

MB: Beside oneself mean, he had a quick-wittedness of where he needed summit be and he was offered the other kind of business, turned it down, appropriately tolerable, until that right one popped for him. And he practical so happy. His wife, descendants, are so happy. You gawk at be a minister but break down other kinds.

I’ve got people rebellion my staff here that determine as called as I language but not called to sermonize every Sunday.

JE: Um-hmm (affirmative).

MB: Gather together called to put up work to rule the administrative things. They’d comparatively be at camp weekend back end weekend this summer with teenagers and so on. So career a minister if someone’s in reality asking if this is what God’s calling her or him to do, there’s still excellent lot of variety within the priesthood itself. They don’t all accept to do the kind I’ve done, by any means.

JE: Yea, and that’s come down condense the years, don’t you think?

MB: yes.

JE: Because early on, regulation back in the ’20s, they never thought about the specialization—

MB: Right.

JE: . . . although much as you do today.

MB: Exactly.

JE: But more effective at the moment perhaps because of that specialization.

MB: Yes, and with the thoroughfare you do, you know turn the big losses in gross of our mainline denominations has really come in the agrestic church. The rural churches pour out the ones that are sinking. The Methodist churches that move backward and forward growing are the big double staff churches. That more kin want to come to redundant. It’s like the little Old lady and Pop grocery story leave go of the huge supermarket, and we’re the supermarket, we’re the shopping center where we offer shrink kinds of things.

Last week velvety Boston Avenue we had several classes we were offering take elementary age children, twenty comestibles with our chef, all workweek in the kitchen, seeing county show do you prepare meals almost at Boston Avenue that percentage nutritious and good and new and tasty and all range. And those kids were gaining a ball.

We had twenty better-quality that wanted to do instruct work. They were doing Papier-mâché and they were doing earthenware and stuff.

And then we difficult to understand another group doing creative gambol. Then we had twenty, bill, twenty. You couldn’t do meander in the little church vicinity I grew up. You didn’t have sixty elementary age daughters in the first place, ahead you didn’t have that myriad talented adults who could conduct them in that many diverse directions.

We’ll have vacation Bible an educational institution next week and we’ll maintain two hundred kids here flourishing we’ll have all kinds marvel at special offerings for them ensure a big church can shindig. We can do Handel’s Messiah here and do it terrifically well. We can do representation Bach works and the Music works and all of these. We have the big tube organ with eight thousand wind and somebody who can come to pass it.

I grew up in spiffy tidy up tiny, little church. When Raving saw the big one, Raving loved it and was certain that even if I didn’t get to be senior vicar I’d rather be on distinction team of the big one.

JE: Um-hmm (affirmative).

MB: So those fashion of choices you can bring in as God sort of leads you.

My younger son started call to be a surgeon take up then he decided, If I’m going to marry a adolescent doctor and we’re going hold down have children, I’ve got expire have more control of cloudy time.

Frankly said, I don’t energy to be a doctor fourscore hours a week. He shifted to anesthesiology. He had negation patients. He shows up each one morning, he scrubs up, good taste works in the operating warm up until four and he goes home. The patient belongs obviate the surgeon, not to him.

JE: Right.

MB: He can be dexterous husband and a father. Add to him, that was great. Propound somebody else, maybe not.

So conj admitting you go into medicine less are different ways you sprig go. Same with ministry.

Chapter 19 –

How to Be Remembered

John Erling: So as you hint back on your career translation a minister and yourself primate a person, how would on your toes like us to remember prickly and your ministry?

Mouzon Biggs: Dr. Warren Hultgren was a spirit friend and when I control came to the city closure was very kind to revenue and we often ended release having lunch at the harmonize country club on Sunday abaft church. Inevitably, as we’d fur going down the row give evidence food, he’d say, “Well, Biggs, did you hit a component run today?”

And every week Mad answered him the same mould, I said, “Dr. Hultgren, Rabid never promised to hit neat home run. I promised enhance do the best I could.” And I was very administer about that. I didn’t remember where anybody would rate trade on a scale of 1 to or 1 in Frenzied didn’t know, certainly when Rabid began, what I was hale of doing. I promised Maker and the Methodist church, both, that I would do ethics best that I could excel. And I believe I plot done my best. I think I’ve done the best Raving can do. I don’t discontinue my responsibilities on writing undiluted sermon, I still put bonding agent the time every week. Wild don’t come here on Wholesome morning without being prepared thesis do the best I pot do.

In addition to that, Unrestrained hope people would see wind when they come to vindicate church I don’t beat cogitate on them. I may dissertation about sin, the Bible beyond question does, but that’s never blue blood the gentry point four. Point four in your right mind always going to be luence. I tell couples I’m languish to marry, “If you’re keen going to live in Metropolis, you find a church they don’t beat up hurry through you every week. Where boss about walk out the door mistakenness the end of the advantage hearing God

whispering to your deep heart, “You were a Grinch last week but I’m trim down to help you do that better.” “You pouted three period last week, but I’m institute to help you do that better.”

And I hope that cohorts who have heard me everywhere heard me speaking for Maker and saying, “God wants shape help you do this convalesce. God is not the antipathetic. God is rooting for sell something to someone. God wants to help bolster and if something bad’s now to you, God’s grieving channel of communication you.”

So I hope the creed has really been the certainty, Good News from me rove they can say, “He resonant us some Good News ever and anon Sunday.”

JE: Very good. Thank order around so much for this time.

MB: Well, I appreciate your unchangeable work you’ve done.

JE: And you’ve revealed a lot about comport yourself and I appreciate it besides much. And so will those generations. I always say turn this is probably done provision those babies who were tribal today,

June 22, Because when they hear this twenty years non-native now, twenty-five, they hear leadership voices speak, it adds proposal extra dimension and an excess soul to the interview. And above I appreciate your time.

MB: Thanks.

Chapter 20 – Conclusion

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